When do you consider an amp "high end"

[oicdn]

The only diy projects that don't have cases or have "esoteric(read:bootleg)" ones are usually mine but I am a fake noob diy wannabe so please do not lump me together with the general diy populace who usually do a fine job. Example one two three four five six etc...

Do you even look at what the "internals" are inside most "high-end" electronics? I have never seen anything "match" because there are no such thing as pcb or point to point cases...

example of a HIGH END ZOMG VALUE FTW amp: Krell baby!

Again, you can choose a METAL case that can be personalized and made to look good with engravings or colors/paint or added on structures etc... Where did you get the idea that diy = plastic case or hammond + shoddy drilling?

PROVEN DESIGNS LIKE TEH HORNET RIGHT? THEY IMPROVED IT WITH A DAC!!! AND IT STILL HAS SPACE FOR THE GIANT CAP!

as an aspiring diyer these comments just tick off this midol-deprived-hungry-as-hell kirby. Meet ticked-face: (>`-`)>

Altmann is an example of a company who doesn't use a case. I was using 'DIY' as an example cause it's a bit more popular for it to be left "naked". Stop taking everything so literal, it's annoying.

When I was saying "internal matching the externals", it meaning, the exterior should looks just as HQ as the boutique parts are inside of it...again, taken out of context/taken literally. I was referring to a plastic case, because well, lets see, your DIY amps are housed in what? Plastic or metal hammond cases. Graham Slee's amps are in a portables plastic case....remember his beta amp that mrarroyo posted? It was SLAMMED because the case/switch holes looked very DIY, and it was just a beta!

[Nanoha]

I know it may be expensive

Since when was DIY expensive in comparison with commercial products? Any commercial product can be obliterated by a much cheaper DIY product.

, but the whole doing it yourself thing doesn't really ooze "hi end" as much as something from from a manufacturer.

I don't even know what to say. You obviously haven't seen much DIY. Especially outside the world of headphones.

I dunno, it can be just as high quality, and in many cases, HIGHER quality, but meh...I dunno...hard to explain.

So just because someone chooses not to waste stupid money, it's not high quality? Many commercial amps have enclosures that cost times more than the internals.

To give an analogy, it's like Karting. I dunno how many of you kart, but a homemade custom made Kart frame/parts, even if it performs better, it's looked at as custom, not "high-end", even if made of Ti or whatever. Whereas the guy down the pit has an expensive manufactured frame, and everybody looks as his parts as high end, and yours as just custom. Even if it's clearly better, in both QC standards, contruction, and performance, they're not quite in the same "class", even though they compete against eachother directly.

lol what? How does that metaphor even apply to audio equipment?

Personally, I could care less what it's "classified as"...lets face it, it's nice to brag to friends or other people that "this is high end"(or just knowing yourself), but if they're not in the hobby, ESPECIALLY with headphones, they'll just give you a look like and think you're an idiot for spending so much money on "headphone stuff" regardless, lol.

I don't know what your friends are like, but I know people would be impressed if by self-built gear. What do you think is more impressive to someone who doesn't know anything about audio (and there are many people out there who scoff at audiophiles)?

- I bought an awesome $3k amplifier for my headphone.

- I built a $1k amplifier for my headphone from scratch. It beats products out there costing three times as much. I could have spend a couple more hundred bucks on a case, but I didn't.

Hi-end is a perceived value(mostly of a commecrial context), as evident by this thread. It is of my opinion, that the externals should match the internals. I'm well aware of subtleness, etc, but from a consumers POV, if you're spending a large sum of money, and you get a plastic case, chances are, you're a little irked, and will end up venting on a forum like this one. I don't care how good it sounds. You'de be complaining if you spend a large sum of money, and got a crap fit and finish.

Once again, the choices are simple:

- Good looking $3k commercial amp

- "incomplete" looking $2k DIY amp that utterly destroys the $3k commercial amp

- DIY amp stuck in a case that looks even better than the commercial amp for $3k and still utterly destroys the $3k commercial amp

Wouldn't most people choose the second choice? That is what you see and that is where your impressions come from.

He has a CNC lathe and 4D machine in his garage (had his entire house rewired to accept the machines in his garage) and one offs many motorcycle and karting parts. I know simply from his abilty to cnc parts at his discretion, there have been companies who have observed his designs and actually bought his ideas from seeing the performance at the races. R&D is important, but it's not everything, as evidenced by him. He's a one man show and does karting as a hobby, it's kinda the reason I used him as an example.

So what do commercial makers have that separates them from DIY makers in terms of the quality of enclosures they can produce? Two CNC lathes?

[en480c4]

I hear ya...but alot of people CAN'T build and buy a DIY design, like the ones you listed.

And unfortuneatly, some of the builders...

Then by definition, IT'S NOT DIY!!! [/discussion]

[hYdrociTy]

I hear ya...but alot of people CAN'T build and buy a DIY design, like the ones you listed.

Which is because?

And unfortuneatly, some of the builders use cheap-ass-wanker parts and it as a whole,

I can think of a few prominent manufacturers that do exactly that.

makes the whole DIY amp a sour view, especially if they use the WRONG parts, but same general lay-out.

Using the wrong part is pretty hard to do unless they are retarded and/or have issues with reading. If you are referring to builders who try out some ELITE AUDIOPHILE CAPS FROM 1910 nobody's ever heard of either on their own accord or on the buyer's in the pursuit of an extra oz of musicality then I would call both parties slightly stupid. The buyer, for not choosing an appropriate builder, and the builder, for experimenting on a customer's order instead of their own crap.

Obviously the buyer has no fucking clue of the specifics of what they're buying into other than a DIY design that somebody has to build because they can't built it themselves, and they've heard "dat Beta double-duece is mad tyte soundin yo!"....

quite obviously

If I could EFFECTIVELY build my own amp I would, and aside from the browsing of boards, I don't really have that much time on my hands. I built a cMoy once, and was exceedingly proud of myself, lol. Worked good for what it was. However, I didn't like the sound, and sold it for a commercial offering. And I'm willing to bet, the general unbeknowing noob will associate that cMoy sound/quality, with most anything DIY....

IF you could, then the community would of course benefit from your classy cases and discerning choice of quality components.

No harsh feelings tho because (>`-`)> is back to (>'-')> mode. It's just that I've been always jealous of how you include lol in every post and I haven't done so but now feel like I really should.

you also caught me in a bad season <.<

[oicdn]

Since when was DIY expensive in comparison with commercial products? Any commercial product can be obliterated by a much cheaper DIY product.

I never said it couldn't....

I don't even know what to say. You obviously haven't seen much DIY. Especially outside the world of headphones.

So a DIY designed piston head, connecting rod, main bearings, motorcycle rearsets, fabricated turbo kits, home speakers, DIY TT....hmm, I think I've seen alot of DIY things, ESPECIALLY outside of the realm of headphones. If anything, that's the MAIN place I've seen "diy". I've just been fortuneate enough to have been spoiled by those DIY things being done by a machine (CNC) and other parts being pieced together for an end product.

So just because someone chooses not to waste stupid money, it's not high quality? Many commercial amps have enclosures that cost times more than the internals.

See above

lol what? How does that metaphor even apply to audio equipment?

Because, the parts are fabricated from scratch, i.e. raw Reynolds tubing cut, madrel bent, welded and finished to parts self designed and assembled from a CNC machine. Just because he has the tooling available doesn't make it any less DIY. Everything was made from scratch, even at times, the ball bearings themselves because he couldn't find the appropriate size. He is essentially DOING IT HIMSELF FROM SCRATCH.

I don't know what your friends are like, but I know people would be impressed if by self-built gear. What do you think is more impressive to someone who doesn't know anything about audio (and there are many people out there who scoff at audiophiles)?

- I bought an awesome $3k amplifier for my headphone.

- I built a $1k amplifier for my headphone from scratch. It beats products out there costing three times as much. I could have spend a couple more hundred bucks on a case, but I didn't.

See above.

Once again, the choices are simple:

- Good looking $3k commercial amp

- "incomplete" looking $2k DIY amp that utterly destroys the $3k commercial amp

- DIY amp stuck in a case that looks even better than the commercial amp for $3k and still utterly destroys the $3k commercial amp

Wouldn't most people choose the second choice? That is what you see and that is where your impressions come from.

umm...see above again. I'm ALL FOR doing it myself and saving money whenever possible. But personally, if it's not cost effective and feasible for MYSELF(time, experiance, and knowledge), I would rather buy from somebody, either building it for me, or from a manufacturer to save myself the headaches.

So what do commercial makers have that separates them from DIY makers? Two CNC lathes?

Sometimes it is. Your statement right there, as sarcastic as it is, is the answer. If somebody can make the end product AESTHETICALLY look better for within reason for slightly more money, that IS what seperates them.

If you would have taken the time to read, you woulda saw that I said from a CONSUMER POV, aesthetics are sometimes important. And alot of times, aesthetics are what seperates the "diy" from the manufacturer. Shit, look at Ray, he has overpriced cMoys....they sell because they're in a nice case. Does it make them any better? No. But you can see, aesthetics(price) made it "high end".

As for the "lol", I really am chuckling at that point. No hard feelings...this isn't head-fi, lol.

[Edwood]

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end. I know it may be expensive, but the whole doing it yourself thing doesn't really ooze "hi end" as much as something from from a manufacturer. I dunno, it can be just as high quality, and in many cases, HIGHER quality, but meh...I dunno...hard to explain. I also think aesthetics play a fairly decent part in it's consideration, a you could have the most rediculous parts, if it looks like ass or 'meh', it's grouped as so.

To give an analogy, it's like Karting. I dunno how many of you kart, but a homemade custom made Kart frame/parts, even if it performs better, it's looked at as custom, not "high-end", even if made of Ti or whatever. Whereas the guy down the pit has an expensive manufactured frame, and everybody looks as his parts as high end, and yours as just custom. Even if it's clearly better, in both QC standards, contruction, and performance, they're not quite in the same "class", even though they compete against eachother directly.

Personally, I could care less what it's "classified as"...lets face it, it's nice to brag to friends or other people that "this is high end"(or just knowing yourself), but if they're not in the hobby, ESPECIALLY with headphones, they'll just give you a look like and think you're an idiot for spending so much money on "headphone stuff" regardless, lol.

By this logic Bose and Monster Cable make high end stuff.

[hYdrociTy]

HA YOU DID NOT QUOTE MY REPLIES I WIN

(>'-')> <('-'<) ^('-')^ v('-')v <('-'<) ^( )^ (>'-')> ^(^o^)>

[oicdn]

By this logic Bose and Monster Cable make high end stuff.

FUnny thing is...to the general public...they do.

[hYdrociTy]

btw can i be mod too? i am online way more than vincesexmaschine is which more than makes up for my lack of poise.

[aerius]

Let's try this again.

Commercial or DIY?

Commercial or DIY?

Commercial or DIY?

Commercial or DIY?

[Mister X]

So what do commercial makers have that separates them from DIY makers in terms of the quality of enclosures they can produce?

Somebody else making the enclosures for them?

Every single enclosure manufacturer that I know of will cut, stamp, paint, anodize, print or otherwize customize their product to the customers specifications.

The question is:

Will the buyer pay the premium for a custom enclosure?

Actually now that I think about it the better question is:

why make a buyer pay for some stupid printing all over their amp if they don't want or like it?

It's like here, you can have this Xp in a plastic case for $50 or have it in an aluminum enclosure for $110. And if you want....Add $40 for custom panels.

Ironically someone here actually chose the $50 option.

[grawk]

Your head is completely inside your colon. If it's better, it's high end, if it's not, it's not. If someone hand builds a car, and it wins, who gives a shit what the wankers with expensive frames call it?

[grawk]

FUnny thing is...to the general public...they do.

Funny thing is, who gives a shit what the general public thinks?

[hYdrociTy]

Ironically someone here actually chose the $50 option.

OHH I BEAT VINCE TO IT I GET MOD NOW *NANANANANAN*

[Icarium]

That's pretty hard ownage.

[oicdn]

Your head is completely inside your colon. If it's better, it's high end, if it's not, it's not. If someone hand builds a car, and it wins, who gives a shit what the wankers with expensive frames call it?

That's what I said at the very beginning...

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end.

I chose the $50 option. Why? Cause I didn't need the charging circuit OR the metal case cause it was going to be in a bag at all times....that's called smart shopping. Wink

Not pointed at either of you, but a perfect example of people not reading and jumping on the lynching wagon. I personally AM for function over form and could care less what's classified as what....95% of the time. That other 5% of the time is when I can either afford it or make it pretty myself. And that 5% only comes around 5% of the time, lol.

[grawk]

That's what I said at the very beginning...

No, at no point did you say my main point: if it's better, it's high end, if it's not, it's not. Who gives a shit what people who spend stupid money on shit say, or people who shop at best buy think. This isn't ipod weekly. This is a discussion forum where we actually care about getting good results.

[aerius]

That's what I said at the very beginning...

Oh bullshit. Here, let me help you out by quoting your entire post, in context.

I personally don't think you can count a DIY as high end. I know it may be expensive, but the whole doing it yourself thing doesn't really ooze "hi end" as much as something from from a manufacturer. I dunno, it can be just as high quality, and in many cases, HIGHER quality, but meh...I dunno...hard to explain. I also think aesthetics play a fairly decent part in it's consideration, a you could have the most rediculous parts, if it looks like ass or 'meh', it's grouped as so.

To give an analogy, it's like Karting. I dunno how many of you kart, but a homemade custom made Kart frame/parts, even if it performs better, it's looked at as custom, not "high-end", even if made of Ti or whatever. Whereas the guy down the pit has an expensive manufactured frame, and everybody looks as his parts as high end, and yours as just custom. Even if it's clearly better, in both QC standards, contruction, and performance, they're not quite in the same "class", even though they compete against eachother directly.

Personally, I could care less what it's "classified as"...lets face it, it's nice to brag to friends or other people that "this is high end"(or just knowing yourself), but if they're not in the hobby, ESPECIALLY with headphones, they'll just give you a look like and think you're an idiot for spending so much money on "headphone stuff" regardless, lol.

Not pointed at either of you, but a perfect example of people not reading and jumping on the lynching wagon. I personally AM for function over form and could care less what's classified as what....95% of the time. That other 5% of the time is when I can either afford it or make it pretty myself. And that 5% only comes around 5% of the time, lol.

So how would you like to explain the bolded parts in your own post? Let me guess, "that's not what I meant, what I really meant was..."

[granodemostasa]

sonically the point of demarcation for me is the dynahi. bellow dynahi is shit. above dynahi is good stuff.

[Icarium]

I think I draw the line at either an upgraded extreme/balanced dya-whatever/beta22 or zana deux. So I guess pretty much any solid product 1500+ish.

[Mister X]

btw can i be mod too? i am online way more than vincesexmaschine is which more than makes up for my lack of poise.

Mods on a forum that has no rules..... kinda like man nipples but you get my vote.

[Nanoha]

I think I draw the line at either an upgraded extreme/balanced dya-whatever/beta22 or zana deux. So I guess pretty much any solid product 1500+ish.

Apache?

[Mister X]

Apache?

Does that qualify as solid?

[Nanoha]

Does that qualify as solid?

Good point.

Rofl.

[aerius]

i draw the line at speakers. below speakers is shit. speakers is good stuff.

Clearly high-end. This is the good stuff.