PFKMan23 Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 That is one of the biggest issues with Head Fi impressions. oftentimes wha I find is that they do use 3rd party impressions, but they state it in such way that it seems that they themselves heard the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnielee54 Posted November 17, 2007 Report Share Posted November 17, 2007 Yeah, you will usually find at least one post like that in every single thread. Doesn't matter if it is an amp, cable, or set of cans. Wonder how long it will be before that starts over here, with a number of us migrating over. I swear to all thats holy, if I haven't heard it, I won't pitch it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Wonder how long it will be before that starts over here, with a number of us migrating over. I swear to all thats holy, if I haven't heard it, I won't pitch it. I doubt that will happen here. I don't think it's wrong to respond to someone looking for something by saying I've never heard x, but you might want to check into it based on what I've read and who is recommending it. I also appreciate it when people say whether they heard x during a meet, and in what conditions, or at home with their own gear. In fact, as long as there is some form of disclosure, I appreciate what most folks have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupus Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Boomana, after feeling the brunt of your full frontal assault, I re-read your post. I intiially thought DennyL was being unfairly called to the mat, but I see much of it could be construed as more of a general rant. I apologize for the snide sig remark. As for the rest of my post, I stand by it. I jumped into this amp thread because I have a vested interested In Xin's amps. I ordered one a couple months back, so am interested in any impressions I can find. Pretty straighforward. Your taking me to task for having no issues with the headphones used I thought was a bit unfair because you omitted the following sentence, which was the crux of the statement: "We make do with what we have." As mentioned previously, for those of us in bumfuck, wherever, the option to buy, beg, borrow or steal a set of phones to match the amp we are test-driving is not always, if at all, available. And in the name of full disclosure: I haven't heard a set of K340s before, nor did I ever claim to. I am however, aware of their reputation of being particularly hard to properly drive. The fact that the Reference was able to drive them at all surprised me, and told me at least something about the output stage of the amp. In other words, I felt I was able to learn something. YMMV. As for all the name-calling and "shut up" stuff, well, that's probably best left on the playground. Back to the thread: A couple months back, I sent an email to Xin requesting a bump in the internal gain setting of the amp due to the anemic voltage output of my Monica dac. Today, I received a reply from Xin. It read, "OK, thank you, Xin." I feel so special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 And in the name of full disclosure: I haven't heard a set of K340s before, nor did I ever claim to. I am however, aware of their reputation of being particularly hard to properly drive. The fact that the Reference was able to drive them at all surprised me, and told me at least something about the output stage of the amp. In other words, I felt I was able to learn something. I find your comments about the output stage of the Reference confusing. Just because a device can make headphones make noise really doesn't mean anything. I dont' think there's a dynamic out there (K1k included) that will shut down an amp. Shoot, my Ipod can make the K340s make sound but that doesn't tell me a thing about the output stage. The reality remains that no portable is going to do much for the K340s especially fed by a low output portable source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 There's another option when you live in the middle of nowhere. You buy the things you're interested in hearing used. I went through a TON of gear while I was living in alaska. You have to pay attention to the various forsale sites, but when stuff comes up at a great price, jump on it. Then you can often resell for enough to cover your expenses, and if not, think of the difference as a rental fee. This is a lot more useful than meet time. Enough more useful, that I mostly look at meets as a place to hang out with people and get ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupus Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 I find your comments about the output stage of the Reference confusing. Just because a device can make headphones make noise really doesn't mean anything. I dont' think there's a dynamic out there (K1k included) that will shut down an amp. Shoot, my Ipod can make the K340s make sound but that doesn't tell me a thing about the output stage. The reality remains that no portable is going to do much for the K340s especially fed by a low output portable source. Ok, maybe I am misusing the terms here. By output stage, I was referring to how much voltage and current that can be supplied to the headphones (Please feel free to clarify if I'm confused here). I was also referring directly to DennyL's initial post, where he states that he was impressed by the Reference's handling of the K340, which I took to mean that it sounded better than just 'noise.' Yes Grawk, I did take advantage of the F/S forum, which is the best option available to me. My RS-2 and PK1 were bought used. I'm awaiting parts for the Monica so I can put it together, and basically the only thing I've bought new is the Rockhopper Mini^3, which I still consider a good deal, and the Xin amp. Buying used and DIY gear is a conscious decision I made a while ago to stretch my budget out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Ok, maybe I am misusing the terms here. By output stage, I was referring to how much voltage and current that can be supplied to the headphones (Please feel free to clarify if I'm confused here). I'd wager that your mini3 has as much if not more of both voltage and current capability than the Xin, just so you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsborken Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 There's another option when you live in the middle of nowhere. You buy the things you're interested in hearing used. Exactly. I'm sure the AE-2 purchaser will be happy with his purchase, especially if he never listens to anything else. As happy as I was driving my HD650s out of a porta corda (via 24v), which was stupid in hindsight but sounded better than my slocky stereo headphone jack or laptop out. The first researched pick always sounds fantastc until other products are tried out. BTW, I'm not bashing the AE-2 as I haven't heard it. Just pointing out that what's taken place really isn't any different than what goes on at other sites except the opinions aren't over hyped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnielee54 Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 Grawk, agree with your comment about buying used. That is how I got my Turbo LOD and AE-2. Ended up being very happy with both and saved some bucks. As far as meets go, let me know the next time there is a meet anywhere near Arkansas (see what I mean about Bumfuck, Egypt) and I will go. I am sure there are better amps out there, but after about a month of research looking at types of headphones used (I pretty much use low-impedence cans it seems) and genres of music used by owners of the amps, I decided that the AE-2 would suit my needs pretty good. It blows my iBasso awy and I like it better than my co-workers Xenos (guarendamnty I spelled that one wrong but y'all know what I mean) so I am pretty satisfied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupus Posted November 18, 2007 Report Share Posted November 18, 2007 I'd wager that your mini3 has as much if not more of both voltage and current capability than the Xin, just so you know. I don't doubt that, as the AD8397 is known for being quite a robust op-amp. That, and the numerous claims that it does good things with Grados and the PK1 led me to the purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 Boomana, after feeling the brunt of your full frontal assault, I re-read your post. I intiially thought DennyL was being unfairly called to the mat, but I see much of it could be construed as more of a general rant. I apologize for the snide sig remark. As for the rest of my post, I stand by it. I jumped into this amp thread because I have a vested interested In Xin's amps. I ordered one a couple months back, so am interested in any impressions I can find. Pretty straighforward. Your taking me to task for having no issues with the headphones used I thought was a bit unfair because you omitted the following sentence, which was the crux of the statement: "We make do with what we have." As mentioned previously, for those of us in bumfuck, wherever, the option to buy, beg, borrow or steal a set of phones to match the amp we are test-driving is not always, if at all, available. Lupus, sorry for the frontal attack. It was a bit overboard, even if I meant it at the time. I'm tired of people misreading simple posts about gear, interpreting them as something personal when it's not, and then jumping in with backhanded shit that is both personal and false. My style may not be the most sensitive when saying things, but it's just gear, guys. If something is a stupid combo, I'm going to say it. If you think I'm wrong, tell me, but don't throw crap my way for no reason. If it makes you feel any better, I consider myself a fool and an idiot as well for even responding. I should know better by now. As to your request for Xin impressions, I happened to listen to the Reference with my PK1s and an ipod, and although I wasn't critically listening at the time, I do recall thinking that it gave those earbuds a nice warm fullness they otherwise lack. You should be very happy. I've never heard RS-2s, so I can't comment there. Here's a genuine question, not an sideways-swipe one (meaning don't get all defensive; it's not personal): if you're auditioning amp that you may want to buy, why would "making due with what you have" be good if it isn't good enough? How can you learn anything if you're using using the wrong stuff? It's like trying to pick a paint color in a dimly lit room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holland Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 Here's a genuine question, not an sideways-swipe one (meaning don't get all defensive; it's not personal): if you're auditioning amp that you may want to buy, why would "making due with what you have" be good if it isn't good enough? How can you learn anything if you're using using the wrong stuff? It's like trying to pick a paint color in a dimly lit room. It's simple. You audition an amp with the headphones you use. If it sounds better, it is. It may not be the penultimate compared to what other people have heard, but it is a step up, as audibly proven during the audition. In time, one may find something better to power their K340. As stated, if one doesn't have access to the better stuff, one can't claim to know anything better. Ignorance is bliss, unless you want to gamble and buy an amp unheard based on internet recommendations. That's why trying to force feed someone an opinion doesn't work, except for the sheep. In the end, good is subjective, after a certain plateau which is also subjective. My ears may tell me that your good is my best as I may not be able to hear differences beyond what you are stating. I don't own your rig, for instance, and I probably never will. I've made a decision that I will never buy an amp, just build. If I can't build it, there in lies my limit and probably 99% of the market. The arguments being stated about experienced people making posts vs. newbies making similar posts can be summed up in one sentence. I found it on the internet, so it must be true. That applies to everybody, and in many ways it's the same, be it a newbie or an experienced person. The arguments can be made that one is posting what they know, but the truth generally is that the newbie nor the experience knows all. The only way to know for sure is to hear the rig yourself. What the rig is, is going to be based on reflections of what people found on the internet, an unfortunate circumstance of a niche market. As such, I guess those impressions are the truth at that point in time for that person making the statement. Neither newbie nor experienced are fully wrong, nor fully correct. "OMG, Zana Deux w/ HD600 is the best." "OMG, Tomahawk w/ HD650 is the best." "OMG, <insert amp> w/ <insert headphone> is the best."...yeah, sure, whatever. OMG, broccoli w/ cheese is the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnielee54 Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 Broccoli with cheese is pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 It's simple. You audition an amp with the headphones you use. If it sounds better, it is. It may not be the penultimate compared to what other people have heard, but it is a step up, as audibly proven during the audition. In time, one may find something better to power their K340. As stated, if one doesn't have access to the better stuff, one can't claim to know anything better. Ignorance is bliss, unless you want to gamble and buy an amp unheard based on internet recommendations. That's why trying to force feed someone an opinion doesn't work, except for the sheep. In the end, good is subjective, after a certain plateau which is also subjective. My ears may tell me that your good is my best as I may not be able to hear differences beyond what you are stating. I don't own your rig, for instance, and I probably never will. I've made a decision that I will never buy an amp, just build. If I can't build it, there in lies my limit and probably 99% of the market. I'm going to disagree. People will obviously use what they have, but, again, if it isn't going to work, what's the point? Go get something that will work or why bother. With portable amps, it's actually fairly cheap to find an okay set of headphones, iems, or whatever that will give you at least a half-decent idea of what you're buying. It would seem that if you're interesting in spending that kind of money to hear certain qualities, you'd be interested in actually hearing what you're paying for. You're simply not going to be able to with some headphones, and you're not going to be able to hear the qualities of certain headphones if severely under-driven. It's a lose-lose situation. Trying to force feed anyone any opinion never really works, but when people start posting their impressions based on idiotic choices (I'm not saying anyone in this thread is doing that; they aren't...yet), that's when I get cranky. Good is only subjective once you've actually exited the realm of bad. People once believed the world was flat. It didn't make it true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennyL Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 I'm going to disagree. People will obviously use what they have, but, again, if it isn't going to work, what's the point? Go get something that will work or why bother. With portable amps, it's actually fairly cheap to find an okay set of headphones, iems, or whatever that will give you at least a half-decent idea of what you're buying. It would seem that if you're interesting in spending that kind of money to hear certain qualities, you'd be interested in actually hearing what you're paying for. You're simply not going to be able to with some headphones, and you're not going to be able to hear the qualities of certain headphones if severely under-driven. It's a lose-lose situation. Trying to force feed anyone any opinion never really works, but when people start posting their impressions based on idiotic choices (I'm not saying anyone in this thread is doing that; they aren't...yet), that's when I get cranky. Good is only subjective once you've actually exited the realm of bad. People once believed the world was flat. It didn't make it true. I'm sorry, Boomnana, you've completely lost the plot. There's more to life than finding the perfect amplifier/headphone match. If someone emails you and says 'Hey, I see you're interested in the Reference, I've got one. How about we get together and crack a few beers and listen to some sounds with it', I'm not going to say 'Ooh, aah, I'm sorry I don't think we have quite the right headphones.' We had a good afternoon and listened to some good music, some of it new to me. As I write this I'm listening to Simon Jeffe's 'Still Life at the Penguin Cafe' through my K701s and a DarkVoice. It sounds great. The Xin sounded pretty good, too. I'm still hoping I might receive mine some day. Let's just lighten up and calm down and stop taking ourselves so seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 I'm sorry, Boomnana, you've completely lost the plot. There's more to life than finding the perfect amplifier/headphone match. If someone emails you and says 'Hey, I see you're interested in the Reference, I've got one. How about we get together and crack a few beers and listen to some sounds with it', I'm not going to say 'Ooh, aah, I'm sorry I don't think we have quite the right headphones.' We had a good afternoon and listened to some good music, some of it new to me. As I write this I'm listening to Simon Jeffe's 'Still Life at the Penguin Cafe' through my K701s and a DarkVoice. It sounds great. The Xin sounded pretty good, too. I'm still hoping I might receive mine some day. Let's just lighten up and calm down and stop taking ourselves so seriously. I completely agree with you, and sounds like a great afternoon. The only problem I see with your reasoning regarding plot or point (or whatever) is that this is an audio forum, one place where people do get to talk about gear, and where it does, hopefully, matter. That's the point of this place (er...mostly). I could care less about what folks have, listen to, care about in their own homes, but when you post here, expect it to be taken somewhat seriously. btw, I think the K701s and the Darkvoice sound pretty good, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirumu Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 I've got one of the early Xin Supermacro-IV amps. I was quite underwhelmed with it originally. It sounded a lot like solid-state trying to emulate tubes but without even coming close to capturing what is special about a genuinely good tube amp. I also found combined with my E500s it made them sound even more rolled off in the treble than before. Overall clarity was acceptable but the bass was muddy and insipid despite being full sounding. It sounded like there was some power suck-out on the heavy bass notes too. Xin had said the original batch had issues and offered the fixes for free so once his workload eased up a bit I sent mine back to have them applied. When it returned from it's journey I found improvements in both bass definition and clarity, but the overall character it originally had remained as did the treble roll-off. It was at this point I started rolling opamps. I'd picked up various additional opamps and buffers to try including many recommended by Xin and others on his forum. In my opinion most combinations made the amp sound worse but I persevered. I ended up settling on some OPA-627s on the main channels with an AD8620 on the 3rd and 4th channel. I doubled up on all the buffers which appeared to improve the overall power and helped a lot with impact although at the expense of battery life. In this configuration the E500s retain their normal levels of treble roll off, but it's not being artificially exaggerated by the amp anymore. Thankfully it also no longer sounds like solid-state with an identity crisis. I still think it's far from ideal. It's lacking extension, and right across the frequency spectrum it still sounds a little more diffused than I'd like. It is though a lot more pleasant to listen to than it was and is fine for portable use or at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupus Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 ...Here's a genuine question, not an sideways-swipe one (meaning don't get all defensive; it's not personal): if you're auditioning amp that you may want to buy, why would "making due with what you have" be good if it isn't good enough? How can you learn anything if you're using using the wrong stuff? It's like trying to pick a paint color in a dimly lit room. Thanks for the impressions of the Xin/ PK1 combo, Boomana. The Xin was actually recommended to me for the RS-2 by a member whose opinion I respect, who compared a previous Xin model with a couple high end Meier home amps using Grados, and much preferred the Xin. The Mini^3 purchase came about after the PK1 found its way into my hands. In my case, I am not "making due with what I have." My decisions have all been based on research, solicited opinions, budget constraints, and present lifestyle (which doesn't permit the toting around of a 20 pound tube and metal monolith). The "make due with what we have" statement was made in reference to DennyL's situation, which I thought was clearly and easily understandable. He had a chance to listen to a new amp, and he used the cans that were available to him at the time. Anybody, I would think, would do the same. I still fail to see any issues here. I look at the gear in your sig Boomana, and know, without a trace of envy, that we are in completely different tiers as related to this hobby. Right now, I'm happy to get my feet wet and see what I can sift out in the shallow waters. You are obviously in (not off) the deep end. Maybe I will venture into deeper waters, maybe I won't. I want to get a feel for things here first, and i think that is all many of us ask: a chance to feel our way around without being constantly told that the water is clearer and cleaner just past the reef. I am well aware of this, as are most others. Common sense dictates it. It's just that not everybody is willing, or has the means, to take the plunge. As for the educational value in going about it this way, that's a matter of opinion. I think I've learned a lot already. You may not see it this way, but everyone progresses on a different curve, and as frustrating as it might be for you to witness the follies of the unwashed masses, well, what better way to learn than through mistakes. In the end, I am in this for one reason and one reason only: the music. There are times when I will don a white lab coat and steel rim spectacles to assess my current situation, but for the most part I just want to hit play, turn up the volume, and wear my ass as a hat, to use the parlance of our times. And FWIW, if you pull your ass down far enough over your eyes, you don't even notice the color of the room :] No hard feelings, Boomana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Other than your strange need to slap back at assumptions I don't hold (unwashed masses?), we see things pretty much the same. Just because I've acquired some gear, doesn't mean I judge anyone for what they own, and since your gear is different than my own, I can probably learn a thing or two from you. As far as anyone else goes, rock on with your stock earbuds if that's what pleases. Ask me about something, though, and I'll tell you straight up what I think. All of us are here for the music (I hope), but the hobby aspect, learning about this and that, is a different thing imo. I'm trying to get into DIY right now, mostly so I can understand what others are talking about, and why some things work well together and why some don't, but I'm starting with -0 knowledge. I've got some books, a boyfriend, and a retired electrical engineer in my neighborhood trying to help me (I need two mentors so I don't burn them out). So far, I'm learning to solder (made a little robot with blinking eyes), and picking up some basics. I've got some kits made for ages 10-14 to teach me to read schematics and not to fry things. The other night, I was messing around with things, and my friend's eight-year-old son had to show me how to do it right....twice! Talk about a learning curve... So zero hard feeling, Mr. Lupus...though your name is horrible... and asshats get passed around a lot in these parts. Hoping today it's not my turn. Let us know when you get that Reference and what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 i'm here to steal IP addresses for nefarious reasons. Good to know who has the asshat duty today. I was afraid it was my day and I missed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 well, here's a tip: if you look around the forum, and you can't tell who the asshat is, it's you. today, you could tell it was me. might be you tomorrow, though, Vicki. Perhaps I'll pick up a double shift. Give some regular wearers a holiday break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elnero Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 well, here's a tip: if you look around the forum, and you can't tell who the asshat is, it's you. today, you could tell it was me. might be you tomorrow, though, Vicki. I'm not seeing it in your custom title therefore you can't be the asshat today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Perhaps I'll pick up a double shift. Give some regular wearers a holiday break. I'm confused, I thought one was the asshat, not wore the asshat. Unless by "wearing", you mean that you're being an asshat magnet -- I.E. dealing with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupus Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Ask me about something, though, and I'll tell you straight up what I think. Appreciated, and I'll take you up on it sometimes. DIY-wise, we are at about the same place, though you have the distinct advantage of having two more mentors than I do (my gf shows little enthusiasm when i demonstrate to her my ability to make silver-colored mudpies). If any of those books are particularly helpful, I'd be interested in knowing the title and author. As for my name, I went straight past the medical definition and focused on the latin origin. An unfortunate coincidence :[ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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