Contrastique Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 What falls in that category? I'm not sure this is the perfect timing considering my latest thread but I'm interested finding out more. I hope I don't annoy anyone here with all these questions. I mentioned the DA220 over in that thread and someone said it was not really "high-end" so then, what is? I've looked at several options but it's hard wading through all these opinions of other people spread out over numerous of threads, comparing apples to oranges or comparing only 2 or 3 options of what I've found so far. I've made a list of DACs gathered from the "Best DAC money can buy" over at hf and left out several models because of their lacking specs / sonically signature (to me). I wonder what your opinion would be on (some of) these DACs. Here's the list: 1: Lavry DA10 $975 Lavry Engineering - Unsurpassed Excellence 2: Corda Opera $1120 Meier-Audio 3: Lavry Blue $1325 Lavry Engineering 4: Grace m902 $1600 m902 reference headphone amplifier 5: Apogee Rosetta 200 $1900 Apogee Electronics: Products: ROSETTA 200 6: Stello DP200 $1995 stello.com. 7: LessLoss Dac $2000 http://www.lessloss.com/users.html 8: Slim Devices Transporter $2000 Slim Devices : Product Info : Transporter Wireless Network Music Player: No compromises. 9: Cyrus DAC-X $2200 Cyrus Audio 10: Electrocompaniet ECD1 $2250 Electrocompaniet: If music really matters 11: CEC DAC DX-71 MKII DA Converter Amplifier $2499 12: Bel Canto Dac-3 $2500 Bel Canto I decided to stretch the list to a price of $2500 as the Bel Canto does get some raving reviews. I'm not sure if I will stretch my budget that far but I'm open to a lot of things. Used is also an option anyways.... As for the sound I like, well, I like my Ultrasones..that should say enough for some / most of you I like speed, clarity, punch, I like it on the bright side I guess. Not warm, not lush or anything. Don't know if that helps to give you a clue on what I prefer qua sound but thought I should add nonetheless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrastique Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Edit: I know this can never be objective and there are a lot of DACs on the list. On every DAC I've read good things and not so good things but it's hard to draw any conclusion from that so thought this could be of some "start-up" help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBLoudG20 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 For a budget of 2500, I'd check out the Northstar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philodox Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 The LessLoss is really nice, though if you want to get its full potential you need to mod your transport. Check out the RAKK dac Mark II from K&K Audio as well. I haven't heard it, but it looks really cool, and the passive output stage is very similar to what is in my new source. If DIY is an option, you might want to have a peek at the new DAC from Twisted Pear Audio [not the OPUS] as the chip in it is recieving a lot of praise. http://www.kandkaudio.com/digitalaudio.html [You can buy kits or completed items] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiug31 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I just checked the price for a lessloss dac and looking at http://www.lessloss.com/pricing.html it is listed at 2995 Euros not $2000 I'm reading these threads with interest but I think upgrading from my mini-dac will mean the purchase of a Cambridge Azur 840C (after more saving ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fungi Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 The Opera's DAC is lackluster, shouldn't really be on that list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swt61 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 The Twisted Pear Audio buffalo is supposed to be very nice, but I wouldn't rule out the Opus either. IMO it outperforms the Lavry DA10 and the Benchmark DAC1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFKMan23 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I personally wouldn't consider the Lavry DA10. Yes it's $975, but it's fairly underwhelming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomana Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Dang, Indra. Your're starting to spend more money than I. Talk to jp11801. He's run through a series of high-end dacs and is currently raving about a French one, iirc, that he prefers over the others, and can be bought used in the $1000 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiki Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Do you need XLR outputs? Not sure about those you listed (apart from the Opera, which is really primarily an amp), but the Northstar that was recommended only has RCA outputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salt Peanuts Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I really liked the ECD1 when I owned it, but I've no idea how it compares to the other DAC's listed (it's also been ages since I've owned it). FYI, ECD1 can be had used for ~$1200 (or less sometimes) often on Audiogon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I'm going to try and contain my fanboyism, but I would very strongly recommend the Bel Canto. The MSRP is $2500, but it should be widely available new for ~2000-2,100. Used and it can be had for $1,700. It also has an advantage not shared by some of the others in its price category, in that there are companies that actively modify it. I haven't heard a modded version so I won't speak to their worth, but the stock version sounds amazing. I had mine go unused in my home for several weeks, in an effort to evaluate the PICOs I bought. Now that my Pico is at work, I fired up the Bel Canto again last night, and...its like being reunited with an old friend. I run HD650s through it, and I strongly feel that it is a great pairing, in that it pushes the Senns ever so slightly to being less dark. The greatest strength of the Bel Canto is undoubtedly its neutrality. It has no hum of any sort, no graininess of any sort, no artificially euphonic sweet highs or cold stringent highs- just....crystal clear grain free highs. And the cleanest bass reproduction I have ever heard in my life. I dont know what feature is better, as they both contributed to the one piece of equipment that finally pushed my rig to the next level. As I've mentioned over at the other site, I am strongly considering a second Bel Canto for office playback. I am planning and saving for a high end SACD player now. Not as a replacement for the Bel Canto, but for both SACD playback and standard Redbook playback; at this point in my audio life, I really cant justify having all these CDs and not having a decent player However, the one thing about the Bel Canto I came to find out is that I will not be able to pipe digital DSD from the SACDs to the Bel Canto, only the downconverted data. So that limits me to high end SACD players as opposed to something like an Oppo Digital transport, to assure I can get a DAC of equal or better quality to the Bel Canto, otherwise, whats the point. But for computer playback, I honestly don't see where you can go wrong with the Dac3. Its probably the best audio purchase I've ever made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 The North Star is a really nice DAC. Basically stopped me from upgrading my source until I get speakers. IME better than the Bel Canto DAC2, DA10 and DAC1. I have no idea how much they'd cost in Europe, but I'm guessing similar or possibly less than the US since they're made in Italy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Dreamer Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I've owned/heard the DACs on the list, except the Lessloss and Cyrus, or very close relatives (as in the case of the Apogee). I'd say that NONE of them that I have experience with are what I'd call "high-end". The cheapest DAC I've heard that I'd consider "high-end" is a used EMM Labs DAC, which can sometimes go as low as $3500 on A'gon. All the DAC's listed are in the same general level of performance, which is very good, and amazing to n00bs, but not amazing. I spent a lot of time leapfrogging from one mid-level DAC to another looking for a major performace gain, but I never found anything for that kind of price which yielded such a gain, just minor tweaks here and there. I'd pick your DAC based mainly on cost, features, looks, and whatever other factors might come into play, and not worry too much about sound quality, as it won't differ in a huge way amongst those players. I'd rather you pick up a used DAC1, DA10, or whatever for $700 or less, or just keep saving up until you have $3k+ to get yourself a real serious DAC. Also the Grace M902 does not have an impressive DAC, it is bested by quite a few internal PCI soundcards, a couple costing less than $100. It's a headphone amp with a DAC tacked on. Just as the Lavry DA10 is largely a DAC with a headphone amp tacked on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanflyz Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Peter is right, all these DACs are mid-fi at best, so focus on what kind of feature you want instead of absolute sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp11801 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 my current favorite dac is the Kora Hermes dac. It is a french design, dual transformers one for the digital end and one for the output stage, tube output and has optical, rca and aes digital inputs. I think that it out classes the wavelength cosecant and has a sound I love. It is much more musical sounding and does not have the high end glare that many of todays dacs seem to have that upsample the signal. I put this up against the APL modded transporter and it was miles above that unit. While I like Alex's work I disagree with him on his old dac chips are inferior to modern ones. If you look on audiogon you can find great buys in the 1k range for Theta and Electrocompaniet. I tend to like detailed and fast sounding gear over lush or warm but I really have issues with the high end glare that many newer dacs have to my ears. I would eliminate the lavry, meier, grace, and transporter from the list. The meir is midfi to me and the others suffer from top end harshness. I'll get pics of it up here tonight probably in a separate thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 my current favorite dac is the Kora Hermes dac. It is a french design, dual transformers one for the digital end and one for the output stage, tube output and has optical, rca and aes digital inputs. I think that it out classes the wavelength cosecant and has a sound I love. It is much more musical sounding and does not have the high end glare that many of todays dacs seem to have that upsample the signal. I put this up against the APL modded transporter and it was miles above that unit. While I like Alex's work I disagree with him on his old dac chips are inferior to modern ones. If you look on audiogon you can find great buys in the 1k range for Theta and Electrocompaniet. I tend to like detailed and fast sounding gear over lush or warm but I really have issues with the high end glare that many newer dacs have to my ears. I would eliminate the lavry, meier, grace, and transporter from the list. The meir is midfi to me and the others suffer from top end harshness. I'll get pics of it up here tonight probably in a separate thread The Hermes is a linear sounding DAC? I was reading about it a while ago, and it does use 12AU7 tubes...I would imagine this is a very tubey sounding unit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp11801 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Surprisingly it sounds very detailed and musical at the same time. I'll be happy to have the NorCal crew put it through its paces at the next meet. I could be wrong but I think my version (first version) uses 6922s but I have not opened it up since purchase. It has some high end seimans in there now but if I ever find my amperex white label pqs I'll give them a shot as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzziguy Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I think that Indra is quickly developing a love/hate relationship with this site. "Love" because the information is so good. "Hate" because that good information is causing her wallet to scream! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
en480c4 Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I really liked the ECD1 when I owned it, but I've no idea how it compares to the other DAC's listed (it's also been ages since I've owned it). FYI, ECD1 can be had used for ~$1200 (or less sometimes) often on Audiogon. x2 If I come into some disposable income, this would be my choice. I really loved the ECD1 during the time I was able to spend with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Not to disagree with those more experienced than myself, but I think many of you are coming from a speaker background which is just plain 'above' the world of headphones. In my opinion, when only discussing things in a headphone-only environment (which I likely may have mistaken the OP for), 'mid fi' becomes 'hi fi' more or less by default. I mean that expectations are set a bit lower for them than speakers, in general. To me at least. Now obviously a $30,000 APL NWO is going to smash most things mentioned here, but that does not necessarily mean that others cannot be considered to be in the same group, imo. I don't mean to write off the suggestions others made, as I'm sure they'd be marvelous with headphones, I just have to begin to wonder when it no longer matters in the world of dynamic headphones. I guess for me personally, despite what others have said, spending several thousand dollars to power a pair of ~$300 headphones (give or take) could be considered high-end for said purpose. At least for a more casual set of people, say, someone outside the realm of these websites. Maybe its not necessary to include them as a sort of litmus test, but I don't know that we can forget completely how the outsider would view things. One thing I just remembered was seeing ads for the Appogee gear, including said converter IIRC, and Mark Knopfler vouched for it; its what he and his studio engineer used in Nashville for his solo material. That by no means ends the thread, but just something to consider. All imo, ymmv, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeggy Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Headphone crush speaker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 hate to do a recommend what I own type of thing, but the 840C is the most feature rich mid-fi digital source out there. Proprietary DACs that upsample to 24/384, digital input, CD transport just in case you want to spin a silver disc, XLR and RCA outs. And perhaps its biggest aural strength is that it does get the highs right. Its a pure win for mid-fi'ers all 'cross the head-case, as many happy owners will tell you. $1350 new, <$1000 used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I don't know -- I get much more detail out of my headphone rig than I do out of most speaker rigs I listen to at the same volume, due mostly to lack of background noise. I think the headphone rig merits the better source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elephas Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 I don't think the Lavry DA10 or Benchmark DAC1 is high-end. I think the Lavry Gold DA924, Esoteric D-05 and Chord DAC64 are reasonably semi-high-end. Of course, there are some even higher-end units out there. Not a DAC, but a dCS Puccini I heard once is definitely high-end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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