Vinyl groove echo

[NightWoundsTime]

So I've been researching a problem I've had for a while now. Mostly since I switched to the Denon DL-110 cartridge I've been encountering groove echo. It hits between tracks, or during quiet parts, and I'll hear a faint echo just before the sound hits (one revolution before, to be exact). It also tends to be a faint echo on the right side, even if the actual music is shifted more to the left. I have never heard a post-echo but can assume that they are present but being masked by the music.

My copy of Keith Jarrett's Koln Concert is especially annoying, since there are so many pauses followed by a quick stab of piano. I've also heard it strongly before The Rolling Stones' "You Can't Always Get What You Want", which of course starts with a choir. As such it seems to mostly happen with large amounts of upper midrange material, or at least it's most audible in those situations.

After much re-checking I'm quite sure that my table is set up correctly. Amusingly, the Denon cart seems to have been designed for easy alignment on the Denon table. It goes smack out to the end of the available adjustment slots.

The tracking force is recommended at 1.5-2.1 grams, and I've tried both ends of the spectrum without much change. I then went with the median adjustment of 1.8.

Does this all come down to my cartridge? I love the Denon but can accept a change if need be. Any recommendations are appreciated, but I'd like to keep it under $300.

[Torpedo]

It's not a cart problem, it's a pressing problem. When the vinyl groove walls are too thin, the indentations of the part to come also shape the groove being traced, which the cart picks up. That's why you hear the pre-echo just a groove away from the one to be played immediately after.

Maybe a cart not so sensitive to the groove tinny shaping would help on that, but then you'd be losing the information you want to hear. Tough call.

[mulveling]

^ Yep. Just one more of those lovable vinyl foibles (your mileage may vary)

[CarlSeibert]

And there's tape "print-through" on the master tape, too. How the heck you tell the difference, I don't actually know.

-Carl

[derekbmn]

And there's tape "print-through" on the master tape, too. How the heck you tell the difference, I don't actually know.

-Carl

It's generally said that "groove echo" will be exactly 1 revolution and/or 1.8 seconds ahead of the groove to be read, and anything else can be attributed to "print-through".

In my experience, stylus profile does seem to have a bit of effect on how easily it is picked up, with the more exteme profiles (micro ridge, micro line, etc) actually being the worst offenders.

Overall it's not something that bothers me much.

[grenert]

Over the years, I've gotten so accustomed to it that, for some albums like "Led Zeppelin II," it doesnt' sound right if I don't hear the pre-echo

I always thought it was tape bleed-through. I'll have to time it next time to see if it might be the vinyl.

[Torpedo]

If the pre-echo is for the groove, you will here it right one LP turn before the "real" sound is played. If it's for the tape, as derek said, the relation isn't that linear since the tape turns don't match the LP groove turns.

On a ECM recording I wouldn't expect it to be from tape print-through, I don't think they had the master tapes stored long enough to have that effect -if that exists which I really doubt- but for groove rims being too thin. The effect is more noticeable when a recording hasn't much dynamic compression and a high SPL turn is right following one with quiet levels.

[jp11801]

Matt I get that as well varies from LP to LP

[omegaman]

I get this on my MFSL copy of The Beatles -Revolver, someone also explained it as tape echo, anyone else got a copy ? Just to make sure it's not my set up ?