Assemblage 2.6/2.7 and Icarium rants

[dreamwhisper]

yeah, I tried to leave that open by saying, (or some other differences between the DACs) although that could make it sound like I'm talking about just a single piece, instead of a method of implementation or larger idea.

So yeah, you're right I put too much emphasis on the PMD100/PMD200 change.

However, the change between the 1100HD and 2.7 I heard was so dramatic that I boxed up the Parasound 1100HD and sold it that day.

I only heard the change with one pair of Senn HD280's. I didn't even bother set it up in my treated room/studio.

Later, I read the jeff chan Assemblage review and the way he described the difference between the two chips was exactly what I was hearing, and I was stoked to see someone rationalise it in front of me.

Really, I should've AB'd the units more and done a proper controlled experiment, so I let my ego get to me by just relying on a firsthand impression and memories of all the praise you had for the 2.7.

[Icarium]

Haha no worries Honestly not angry or even disappointed in you More amused then anything. Plus I think it let me distill and figure out some of my thoughts and attitude better I think in order to vomit out that post ;p Still very stream of conscious and vomity, but I did get it out of my system as well by posting it.

Absolutely the most important thing is how happy you are with it and how much you enjoy it and the hobby So never let anything I say or do even if it seems incredibly hard hitting make you lose sight of that. I do want everyone to enjoy things they own and like no matter if I agree with their taste or their choices. I don't expect people to at all! But I don't think my methodology or approach necessarily impinges on that unless their true and actual criteria is something like.. can't think/analyze/consider and hone what I like and if I do then it totally ruins the hobby for me completely. And I don't think there are that many people out there. There are probably more people that think that, but deep down it's not really what they want, but many contrary experiences have dissuaded them from trying more. I do believe that for everyone of us even the most analytical and those of us that have heard the most things there is still something out there that's affordable that we might like better and would own if we knew about it... so why not speed up the search for that by better defining your own exact personal criteria for what you like and learning how to quickly evaluate for that? You might not find that ideal component, but you probably will find something close and you'll know that you've tried your hardest to find your personal best?

Ohwell that's how I try to roll though. But it's not for everyone. Still, I think what bums me out the most about the hobby is when people appear to purely like something just because someone they respect does and can't really listen unbiasedly and really ask themselves is this the best I've ever heard? Take price out of the picture. Take looks out of the picture. Take tech out of the picture. Take what my friends say out of the picture. Take rarity out of the picture. Take what I want to believe and want to hear out of the picture. And really ask oneself, is this the best? Has something I've heard that's perhaps better and even though if it was cheap.. something I wasn't "supposed" to like or what?

A good example is the Singlepower SS-1. Honestly right before I made the decision I bought I A/B'd against the Rudistor RP010. I can already picture how some headcasers' cogs are turning. Reflexive "BARF SINGLEPOWER BARF RUDISTOR CRAP AND CRAP. Shut off brain now because they are so clearly crap that it's pointless even spending idle thoughts on either product." Well there is strong basis in that kind of thinking (They are both crap from many angles ;p) and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But for me there are still levels of crap and it's nice to have a good solid experience with crap so you can recognize it and explain it.

But anyway, back to my example. So the biases I brought into that listening session were this:

1. Singlepower is a great brand. Mikhail is a genius because he tries to deliver custom solutions and goes a little crazy/hardcore with what he uses and tries to accomplish.

2. Singlepower is expensive and high priced because of how much time and components Mikhail put into it.

3. I like the aesthetic.

4. This SS-1 is the best and most expensive solid state out there and if I ever will want it down the line I'm going to have to pay an 8k+ premium for it so if I at all can see myself wanting it then I should buy it since 8k savings is no joke (This is where Sleestack's business acumen really came in ;p Though I'm sure his intentions were good/generous/kindly, but when you are a that successful business man sometimes you probably can't turn it off ;p)

5. The rudistor is good and close to the best solid state, but the SS-1 will be in another class.

6. I prefer how the SS-1 looks

7. The ss-1 is my ideal because I'm not a tube guy at heart because I like an analytical sound (No longer completely true, but again I really thought I am 100 percent about details/soundstage over tone. Thinness is the price you have to pay for detail and I will pay it! Haha I was so stupid.)

Anyway I had all those things rolling around in my brain so it really is no surprise to me that I bought it. Anyway on doing A/B between the two. I was pretty surprised by how much I liked the Rudistor RP010 in comparison to the SS-1. It almost made me question everything. The SS-1 had a wider soundstage.. might be more detailed (Wasn't entirely sure, but I was willing to believe that it was but in reality it was close) and I had always told me that wide soundstage and detail are #1 for me. The rudistor though had a punch and organicity and fullness to it though that really.. I mean it wasn't something that I've ever thought I liked, but I was able to identify it and realize that those were qualities that I value and it made the decision hard. I think completely objectively... even then on some almost subconscious level I knew I liked the RP010 better. Yet, I listened into my fear of eventually wanting the SS-1 and the 8k discount on it + the lack of Mikhail wait time + Mikhail did say that he was going to stop making custom amps (Haha, I was sooo stupid then) and that fundamentally even though I was swinging the big money dick I was very new to the hobby and there was probably still things I needed to learn to fully appreciate that big savage laid back and kind of boring beast.

So I fucking bought it ;p My biggest audio regret for sure. Never again. Yet, there were things I liked about it and genuinely enjoyed about it. I liked that it was essentially 2 balanced amps in 1 and I could hook up two different sources to it and use it like two separate rigs at once. That's something very few amps can offer me for sure. It didn't sound that bad. But yeah 7k? lulzzzzzzzz. Maybe 3-4k with that sound and those features and had actually been of decent/durable internal construction. But even then I certainly wouldn't have bought it. Features are great, but sound first. For me anyways ;p

So I guess what I'm really trying to say are the things that bum me out about this hobby the most is when someone strongly feels something is the best when it's very likely that it isn't the best for them even by their values/taste. That maybe that's what they believe because someone they respect told them to like it or head-fi told them to like it. Classic example is when someone is like phoenix is best ever because ipodpj says it is!! I respect ipodpj because he posts a lot so he must know a lot! Also he posts with great vigor! People who do that must really know their shit and feel strongly/passionately about it or they wouldn't post like that!

Sadly most people do not have the luxury to buy a bunch of expensive duds to figure out what they want and don't want. Nor the time/energy/money to go to meets. Not enough data :/ Though when you are plopping down for a 1k+ amp though do you really not have the time/money to do some due diligence? Should do some and if you do it and phoenix is still #1 that's cool. Don't expect your best to be my best, but I'm glad you've found yours So yeah it's not about what they like or don't like, but really how much effort did they put in to verify that before jumping head first into phoenix fanaticism.

Fanaticism.. ugh that's the other big Icarium bum out thing. Some people probably think I'm a fanatic haha, because I also post and express my opinions at times with great vigor Maybe I am, but I have also really spent a lot of time figuring things out in a pretty objective fashion or at least as objective as I can humanly be. Can't really screen out all bias even if you try, but that doesn't mean you/I shouldn't try imo.

Anyways it's not really fanaticism, but fanatic style posting when you don't have the knowledge/authority really to justify it or back that up. A lot of people do this. All the great shills and the their disciples and fanatic followers do it. And it's not really something limit to crazies like jamato8. It's a useful but devilish writing tool that any of us really can and do use. It's like writing a review about something you haven't heard before.

Any one of us I'm sure can write a review of something we haven't heard before. Throw in burn in updates. Throw in some flaws to make you seem objective and make you seem like you really got the whole picture with the sound. Throw in some snazzy pictures. After you build some credibility.. then unload with the enthusiasm and hyperbole. Throw in more burn in updates to cement that. Throw in some positive comparisons to things that are expensive and that people like. Throw in maybe 1 thing that is clearly 10 notches up in "tier" (Whether tiered by price or general public sentiment i.e. B-52 is high tier) and say something humble like oh for sure this cheap chinese amp loses out to my B-52, but it keeps up surprisingly well! It has similar tonal traits even if it isn't as cohesive and detailed and imaging isnt as precise, but it really is like 70-80 percent of the sound for like a fraction of the cost!!!

And the newbs eat it up. They do! Why not? I almost do if I didn't know what I was looking at and reading and know that the B-52 also sounds highly overvalued. I do wish people did less of this though. Even if you had your mind blown and you want to express it. It would be great if people interjected more doubt and personalize the hyperbole. Newbs will still buy into it even if there are clear indicators their taste and what they kinda are into is completely different then you, but that's because newbs are lazy and want to just use your experience rather then spend the money/time to do it themselves. They just want to find their guru and blindly listen to them without really understanding their guru's approach/taste. Ask themselves do I and my guru even have the same taste in music? I mean it's not necessary that we do, but it's important to be cognizant of that fact. For instead I like fast paced music that can tend towards the raw with flawed voices and stuff. My heart really sings for that shit. Filburt really likes Jazz/Metal/Funk/80s music. I don't like any of those things. Does this mean I shouldn't listen to Filburt's take on things? Nah its cool cus he also can be really objective and we have overlaps in what we like in sound. Speed/Clarity/Details/Imaging/Fullness/Punchy/Attack... if he didn't like metal or other fast paced music and was not into a fast sound.. then yeah maybe he wouldn't be a guru of mine. Fundamentally I just don't think newbs really draw these distinctions and they should spend a little effort figuring that shit out imo.

So yeah dreamwhisper ;p Figure out what you like and how to get there. That's most key. Don't like the assemblage just because Filburt and I or whoever seem like we know our shit. Try to know your shit too. If that takes you away from the Assemblage that's totally cool (I don't really think it will ;p but that's my arrogance speaking haha). Sell it to someone that will value it more or someone that's curious in seeing if its their ideal and buy what you truly want ;p That's what community is all about and where I find value in it. Helping me find what I really want and helping others find what they really want.

What's rewarding to me isn't that everyone has and likes the same things I do, but that the people who do have the same things I do appreciate it as much as I do on all levels and it's their ideal and we can gush at each other about that in absolute wonderment and amazement at how perfect it is for us personally and how cool it is that we both really truly have found our ideals ;p That's the best for me. And I'll be honest I'm not entirely sure that you are heading in that direction when we do communicate :/ But that's cool Maybe now you can... if my philosophy is something that vibes with you. If not that's cool too It's not like we'll probably ever meet each other and so why should I get so personally invested ;p It will always bum me out on some level that there's someone owning something rare that another party wants unbelievably bad and isn't appreciating it to the fullest or more then that other party would... but of course it's not a core belief for me or I'd sell some of my spare dacs I don't use and horde ;p And maybe more fundamentally everyone has the right to own what they own or want to own. That's something I believe in. Even a shit-heel like NoNoNoNoNoNo has the right to own a dac 2.7 because he could pay what the seller was asking for at the time (Sorry Filburt ;p). Moreover one of the things I do admire and respect about NoNoNoNoNoNo was he put 10x more effort and dedication into finding one then I think anyone else... even me and I put a lot of effort into finding my dacs. So good on you NoNoNoNoNoNo if you can even read this. Don't let anyone tell you, you don't deserve it ;p That being said you still are a shit-heel that is poison to any community in a very zero-sum sense.

[falkon]

wow. I wonder if anyone cept dreamwhisper is gonna read that. Now I understand why they tried to have that gtalk contest.

[Fungi]

You don't like metal? GTFO

Just kidding, excellent post (yes, I did read it). Definitely lol'd at that last line.

[mypasswordis]

I'm not sure, but I think I was drifting in and out of consciousness and a couple of days may have passed, trying to read through all that. But then again, I have the attention span of a gnat.

[dreamwhisper]

And I'll be honest I'm not entirely sure that you are heading in that direction when we do communicate

Thanks again for the feedback man, I think am gaining an understanding of your philosophy to this hobby.

And I can see myself enjoying the process of listening comparisons in the future now that I have found my ideal headphone/transducer (O2's), hopefully I will be less concerned with quick-results and more willing to take the effort to know my shit.

And the newbs eat it up... It would be great if people interjected more doubt and personalize the hyperbole.

I think this attitude is next to impossible for newbs who don't have as lot personally invested in the hobby. Either that or they have too much personally invested. (emotionally or monetarily)

Either way, gear they can't afford will always be revered with a sense of awe.

And the narrative we would all like to see concerning gear that people currently own will be incomplete because of a lack of data/experience, or an equally damaging inability/unwillingness to internalize the information because they are equating $, rarity, and heresay with enjoyment.

(thinking deep down that what they have isn't good enough because it doesn't achieve enough of one of the above criteria - the reason why the same people on Head-Fi post the same shit over and ever again,, to hear how much other people want gear that they have... if you are really happy with the gear you have, why not post less and listen to it more?)

It's important to enjoy the process of auditioning gear and maintain as much neutrality as possible so we are able to hear the different variables that are tested for in gear.

To 'remove oneself' from the process of listening to gear is performing at a high-level and people who do so deserve a lot of respect.

Who knows, maybe they can prevent the newbs from making the same mistakes over and over, though I'm not sure if this learning can be accomplished in the absence of direct experience. (like buying wall-warts in a chasis for 7k, or being slapped around a bit by people on a forum, or personally auditioning diverse gear, different components in the signal path etc)

Anyways, I'm really happy with the O2's that I have, it's been a long time coming.

And thanks for getting me to reconsider the quality of the Assemblage. I'm going to compare it to the Apogee MiniDAC I have. (which has been my reference DAC in the studio for the last 2 years)

It's a pity that the Parasound didn't get the audition it deserved. (because it is nice)

Not being 24/96 took it out of the running for use as a reference DAC as it's considered standard to have a 24bit depth for production,, also the main reason why I was so willing to let it go.

...Trying not to let the rationalizations of the last paragraph confuse the intent of this post which is that I learnt a lot from your posts.

Thanks for taking the time to write both of the posts

[Deadneddz]

For instead I like fast paced music that can tend towards the raw with flawed voices and stuff. My heart really sings for that shit. Filburt really likes Jazz/Metal/Funk/80s music. I don't like any of those things. Does this mean I shouldn't listen to Filburt's take on things? Nah its cool cus he also can be really objective and we have overlaps in what we like in sound. Speed/Clarity/Details/Imaging/Fullness/Punchy/Attack... if he didn't like metal or other fast paced music and was not into a fast sound.. then yeah maybe he wouldn't be a guru of mine. Fundamentally I just don't think newbs really draw these distinctions and they should spend a little effort figuring that shit out imo.

I think that this statement has a very good point. Drawing these distinctions is something I have learned through passionate investment of my time and money in this hobby. There are some members that I have trust in being objective about sound characterisitics that lie beyond our subjective sound preferences(the qualities you listed that overlaps regardless of preference for instance). And to me its these members who are the ones who have put time and effort to really understand their perceptions. As far as anyone out there that meets exactly my sonic preferences, which is very subjective and personal, I haven't found an exact match and I don't think I ever will. Thats like finding someone out there with the same fingerprints as you imo. Unfortunately there will always be newbs that won't be spending the effort neccessary to draw these distinctions for themselves, but that will always be the case regardless of how many expereinced/great member there really are. That is not something we should worry about, because how far we take our own hobbies are up to us.

I think that some people who have found their preferences take it the wrong way and have the exact opposite reaction to what you described when you talked about you and Filberts preferences. Instead of seeing that another member simply has different sonic preferences, they feel insecure about their own preferences and even though the other member may have enough expereince and time invested to understand what they are hearing objectively, the difference in what they like better is enough to cause doubts to them. Now that might cause them to become fanatical about their own gears because they simply do not have enough expereince or are just insecure. This is the unfortunate side of the hobby where those who are not expereince enough may not be able to separate what they read is good to what they think is good for them deep down. This is not what a community is for imo. Thanks for posting your expereinces as it really mirrors my own trials, errors and joy that have gotten me to where I am today, both gear wise and in mental state.

[atothex]

Stop picking on those noobs haha. They're not necessarily all lazy; there's just too much info to take in all at once. It's also hard as fuck initially to figure out who to trust. Hell, I still feel like a noob when the techy boys start going off about whatever random transistors or wiring layout or whatever the hell.

[Icarium]

Yes most of them are lazy or they simply don't care enough but still rep that they do. I mean what do you mean by hard as fuck... there is genuinely hard and there's time consuming. Yes it was a time consuming process for me but it was never hard because I wanted to figure shit out. There were missteps, but there are always missteps. It was a huge time and money investment and I had to travel to get to where I am now, but it was something I really wanted so I paid it without much hesitation. Definitely not hard.

It's just never really truly hard when it's something you really want.

I'm sorry but too often people, even long running and established people there, will just buy what someone tells them to buy and wants what someone they respect wants. They look for shortcuts in the worst possible way. They find someone they can place utter and complete faith in without really examining what their methodology is.. maybe their social standing, the kind of things they own, how often they post, how well they post and how cool of a person they seem to be and then just believe in them until they are so utterly burned by shitty buying choices that they have to find a new person to do that shit for them. Or sometimes they never get burned because they stay so rigidly in the confines of what that guru that they will simply never know if there is something out there that would blow their mind if they maybe didn't so blindly follow that guru.

And you might say "Aha but you said you have gurus! wtf mang what's up with ze hypocrisy." And yes I have gurus. Tis true, tis true. But I have extensively verified their resume through much personal experience and discussion with them. I really tested them and still do with constant questioning ;p I also concretely define the limits of their influence over me much like I did above with Filburt. It is very different. It requires a lot more work of course then blindly following whatever, but again not hard for me because it's something I want.

To reiterate... what I am sick of from newbs is guys who come into the hobby and take shortcuts like finding a guru to blindly follow and then either think they know everything because they picked the best guru and so far he hasn't let them down (The gear they bought on his/her advice doesn't suck the worst ever, though people can be surprisingly deaf to suckage as long as their guru approves and not even suckage in the sense that I think it sucks, but suckage in that is thin and distorted sounding) or they do get disappointed and then they just shut down whine about how hard it is to get good affordable sound. The truth is they really don't care that much and thus don't invest the hardwork and show a little independence (Not hard to do when you can motivate yourself by knowing its something you really want) and then feel entitled to the best anyways which even if they had they wouldn't appreciate.

Krmathis? Still a noob always and forever. This isn't even a rant against new people. There are tons of people who enter the hobby and start reaching their hobby goals MUCH MUCH faster then I did. I respect those people a lot. But here's a fresh example in my mind. Trevorlane. Join date on head-fi in 2004 and has 100 posts. So he's been around.. lurking in the tall grasses. Reading posts. Learning stuff. Figuring out how to reach his goals. Did he buy an apache (which he does own) and then start gushing about what a genius Ray is? Nope. He eventually figured out head-case's existence. Did he show up and get torpedo down by the welcoming community? Nope he read posts and figured out that people can be quite hostile to new people and eventually asked me how I thought he should handle it. I told him shrug.. figure out a good question or opinion that shows that you have some depth of thought and just go from there. Hang out in the chatroom too as that's a good way to get people to know you without putting your post-foot out there. And guess what? He did just that and while he may not be a major presence here yet.. well it's a much better entry then what most newbs do. I can appreciate that. That's a good new person ;p by my standards. An even better new person would be someone who does what he did or does what I did but in a much shorter time. In a few months rather than 6 years in his case or my case ;p

Lastly goals. So we all have different goals. My main goal here is to find my ideal rig or rigs. Some people are here for the people. Some people are here for getting something cheap but good. Some people are here to build some sort of weird following and reputation for being knowledgable and then taking advantage of that. Some people are here to own things that other people will respect them for (Similar to the last one) or things that other people desperately want. Some people simply want other people to buy things they themselves like. Some people just want to make money. Some people just want to find good value. Some people just want to find good deals.

All these reasons are valid and worthy of some level of respect (Directly correlated to how community-friendly your goal is). Be here because you wanna be here (or there), but be very honest and real about your goals with yourself and with others imo and maybe try a little bit to not be a poison to the community ;p

So I'm probably coming off as very self righteous and superior sounding. I don't think that way at all. Unfortunately this is just my style I think a lot about these things and as I try to understand myself and why I like things and want things. I recognize that not everyone is interested in doing that even for themselves. That maybe analyzing things will ruin their enjoyment.. and that is fine, but I do somewhat question if you are going to get there without doing some analysis and figuring yourself out ;p Like what are you going to do? Buy a piece of gear and just love it? If you buy another piece of gear at some other point don't you compare the two? Isn't that doing analysis? Or do you just buy a piece of gear and then switch it to another one at some point and then blindly enjoy each of them equally and in a vacuum from each other? I guess I could see that working. That's cool, but maybe don't post a review that makes you seem super objective and did super analysis down to like the 10,000th hr of burn in?

Edited April 6, 2010 by Icarium

[morphsci]

I can only be objective up to the 9345th hour, after that I become an audiphile fop.

[Icarium]

Damn that's already pretty good ;p I can't really be objective past 5 or 10 minutes (Probably really even under a minute or so and then I fake it for a bit longer) because I know my audio memory fades and becomes unreliable and I'm pretty good at convincing myself of things and rationalizing things so if I spend any more time dwelling on shit past that I'll go into a circular flip-flop hell cycle where I'll just keep convincing myself I like it better or I like it worse until I get so fed up I just pick one and then try and convince myself that that's what I believe.

And worse after all that pain and suffering and then finally some sort of relief that just anchors that belief in me and deprives me of my ability to objectively recognize when something is better.

That's me though ;p Fear the 9345th hr! I'd like to see a graph of your objectiveness and how it correlates to the passing of time. Can anyone help with this ? ;p Haha jk.

[luvdunhill]

subscribed

[morphsci]

Yeah just bustin your chops a bit. There is actually a lot of interesting info in your posts but me thinks your mainly preaching to the choir here.

oh, and subscribed

[Icarium]

Haha yeah I know. But I've never been one to discount something said even in jest or derision or even when the intent is to harm me emotionally/mentally. Because in the end its still a piece of information. It might be a good piece of advice to act on or it might be a good observation and it seems like a waste to just close my mind to it just because the originator is a dickface. Well even if he is a dickface but what better way to annoy/bother him then by taking something he gave me and making my lot better? Maybe a bit passive aggressive, but oh so deeply satisfying but concurrently I'm becoming a better more progressive person. Seems like win/win to me and anything else is less sane.

I could just ignore everything he/she says, but chances are that he/she has something valuable for me to know and hear still and to close the door on that just because they are a dickface and they hurt my butt or put sand in my vagina just seems like itll hurt me more in the end.

Anyway, obviously I don't think you had even the slightest ill intent Morphsci. You are someone I really respect on all levels. You have a great approach to the hobby and the community its clear to me that you are progressing to an ideal gear state without trying to hammer your philosophy down on other people. Plus you contribute on many and all levels in ways that make sense.

But still my attitude can apply to things said in jest and humor and without seriousness. The absurd. So... many absurd ideas dont pan out, but I think to hold bias against them and not even give any of them some serious thought is wasteful as well. Honestly any idea I hear no matter how ridiculous it sounds or how funny it is I generally run a few "what if" style simulations on anyways just in case it is a good idea that will work for what I need it to work for. This sounds time intensive but as with most things if you practice it properly and gain experience and optimize for it you can do it very fast. I can do it in seconds. If you have good enough models and a thoroughly unrestrained/uninhibited though process then it's as fast and natural as doing things that are muscle memory are for athletes. This might sound unbelievable and arrogant, but trust me it took a lot of self loathing and time and effort to get to this point

I think also many people use humor to emotionally divest investment in an idea out of fear of rejection. If they have an idea that intuitively might make sense to them and they haven't thought it out fully but it does seem absurd with what thinking they have thrown at it... a fear of rejection will form so why not phrase it in a joking fashion? Maybe someone will recognize it and be better equipped to confirm your intuition etc etc. Someone like me ;p

Luckily now that I've developed my style of thinking I have very little fear of rejection. So I have an absurd idea.. well I've run some simulations on it and even if it goes against the grain and is outside of the box I can probably give some pretty good and valid reasoning as to exactly why I think it's a worthwhile thing to do. And if the other party can't respond to that especially if my delivery is good (Open minded, not judgmental, sincere, self deprecating with humility and humor) then I have faith that most people will gain understanding and agree. If not then maybe the idea wasn't good. I'll see if they have data to support that and if so then I'll try and come up with something better. If they are closed minded and not actually that interested in achieving a better solution (Maybe they are hung up on wanting to do things their own way and close their minds because of that) then honestly rejection from someone like that does not bother me. I did what I can. It's on them and really they aren't even that great so why stress?

I dont see it as preaching per se. It's more like vomit in the purest sense. I have 0 investment whether or not anyone else reads this or not. This is a good way for me to get this shit out of my head and also forces me to formalize my thoughts in words (Though clearly not that formalized without that much more editing) and sometimes that's what it takes to really figure out and understand and absorb something. So even if no one else reads this I benefit. If 1 person really agrees with me and I help them in some way then its extra credit. A lot of people benefit even better. If everyone picks and chooses bits that they agree with and want to adopt then that's fine too! If someone finds a flaw and comes at me with it with some good reasoning then maybe I can improve. I'm not so married to anything that if confronted with a differing reality I won't jump ship towards reality rather then whatever I believed in before. Reality is important to me In fact we all have blindspots so if you do have something that you think really disproves my entire belief structure/attitude well point it out ;p I can adjust and improve!

However, if you come at me without any good points or theories and just you are wrong because my parents told me so, my society told me so, my god told me so, my government told me so or because my own personal experience has told me otherwise, or because I'm older/more experienced/more successful then you... well I'm going to be a lot less interested ;p There's still interesting information to be gathered from discussion with one of these, but after hearing them repeat their unsubstantiated dogma a few times over I think I'll pretty much be done getting anything of value out of that ;p

So no preaching. Fuck preaching. Just take from it what you will and even if no one takes anything then like I said there is enough value for me to do it even if its only for me which is why I did it in the first place. If not then I might not have done it.

So it is like vomit. I'm glad I vomited got shit out of my system that neither I nor my body wanted in there all that badly and there are gonna be a few people interested in it probably... japanese vomit fetishists and maybe dogs, but hey maybe my vomit is like ambergris and hot model chicks will want to make perfume out of it. Who the fuck knows, but it's out there if anyone does and if not then rain will probably wash it away if a dog doesn't eat it.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Icarium

[Asr]

Venting is therapeutic for the soul and I for one look forward to more Icarium rants, so keep them coming. (lol @ at the new thread title)

And fwiw I read every word of your posts and found myself in agreement with some of it and gained insight from the rest. I'm going to have to chew on some of what you wrote, some definite food for thought. Thanks Dan.

[GPH]

I like your style, dude.

Nah, seriously, I always appreciate a good rant and especially when I agree with the content. I'm pretty good at ranting myself, but not in English unfortunately.

[zertohero]

Dreamwhisper - I'm still keen for you to post an image of the inside of your 2.7

I will post an image of mine;

If you look at the three ic's top right you will see what looks like an aftermarket mod on one of the chips, where two legs have been linked.

I would be keen to know if yours has the same...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2963[/ATTACH]

[Icarium]

Haha thanks guys always appreciate it I'm very glad and know that it is a bit of a trial to wade through it and all I can ask is if you do that that you do spend some time mulling things over not just for me, but for yourself (Why spend the time to read it if you aren't gonna at least think about it? Seems like a waste). And if you come into some things that are inconsistent to what you've experienced and have some good arguments/points that don't jive with it ;p Hit me up and let's chop some logic and I think both of us will benefit. Your model of life/things might improve, my model of life/things might improve and maybe both ours will improve and if we come at each other in full force with passion/vigor/0 hangups and 0 fear of spite then I think something positive will come out of it and there's no downside. We can walk away maybe agreeing to disagree but at least we know both parties tried. Closemindedness is the only enemy ;p but even then no reason to hate only pity and there is always a hope that maybe one day something will change and the other party will become less closed minded and so I'd like them to know even then the door is always open and the bridge is unburned and we can try again

Edited April 8, 2010 by Icarium

[deepak]

Good posts DanC and the thread title edit I made was all in good fun

After seeing a lot of shenanigans pulled in high end audio I'm definitely a lot more careful with what I buy also given that it is more difficult selling gear in these times. And I do place stock in what a few people here say about gear as they have similar tastes as mine.

[Icarium]

Haha no worries deepak. Again someone I respect a lot and who's approach to the audio hobby I've found makes a lot of sense to me and I think is good.

[deepak]

I know in the future I am going to try to be more objective with gear especially amps and DACs. We did a few double blind tests a while ago comparing some DACs and CDPs on a high end speaker system and it was difficult to distinguish the differences when we didn't know what we were listening to. The bias immediately entered the tests when we went back to traditional source switching.

[Icarium]

That is pretty interesting. My experience with single blind dac testing (Close to double blind since there was very little influence/bias from the guy controlling switching in that after he would hook two up he pretty much immediately forgot which was left which was right) and I noticed a lot of differences between dacs.

Some were pretty close though, but I am reasonably sure that if we took two that were the furthest sound apart and put them next to each other (In fact we did this at the end) and it was very much illustrative of how different even good decent dacs sound (I think we did this with the Benchmark and Parasound DAC 1600) and as much as I will never buy a benchmark and despite how some feel it sounds like garbage, it really doesn't sound that bad to me.

Another factor I take into account is how different Filburt's dac and my Spectral sounds. Both are about the two best dacs I've ever heard but also sound almost completely different to me. Sure they share many similarities, but there are many differences and the overall holistic sound signature of the two is very different. They diverge and don't really converge.

This is proof positive to me that we are nowhere near the point where high end, high cost or even high tech equates to complete transparency.

If this is a graph of how we progress and refine something:

\---------/

\-------/

\-----/

\---/ <- We are maybe here. Supposed to be a big V

\-/

V

This is where analytical meets music meets high tech measures well but still has soul and the vibrancy of a live performance. Why shouldn't something with absolutely perfect tech be moving and only be analytical? If the artist is great then shouldn't more perfectly rendered information only make the experience closer to real? Imo, clearly yes. We just aren't there yet.

But Icarium you nincompoop why do so many expensive things sound the same? Well there are some pretty obvious answers to this. First of all most of us believe in a "high end" sound. I'm sure designers/makers and most of all the marketing people believe this as well and so they create for that. And why not? People will pay big bucks for it. So if that's all they are trying to reach for then is it any surprise that no progress is made towards the pointy end of that V?

Also a lot of them do scrimp on design and use the same key parts and use schematically similar circuits. Just how it is because the market will bear products like that.

Moreover why not? If all you needed to do to create and sell a high end product was take something that exists already and "improve" some measurements (And then don't list other measurements harmed by that improvement) swap in some fancy sounding parts and change the aesthetic and people will buy it. Why not? I don't blame just the makers I blame the community (Larger community of audio not just headphones) and I blame the consumers as well.

And I hate to say it but the caliber of engineer that is going to the audio industry is not generally the best humanity has to offer. This is simply reality and due mostly to progress and the availability of more options and further incentivized by high paying salaries in places that can afford to offer them and value good engineering. Back then Audio and maybe Video and cars and other shit were all engineers had to choose from. Today we see industries like the software industry, the computer hardware industry, cellphone industry and even the financial industry pay a lot for top engineering talent.

But you say, but engineering disciplines are different! What about those engineers that are only suited for audio. Well first of all I don't really find engineering to be that discipline unique. Engineering to me is more a methodology then really anything specific. And if you are an engineer that disagrees then maybe you haven't found/met an engineer from another discipline that has a lot in common with you. I have so I believe it, but I could be wrong.

Moreover, it's also a big matter of societal programming. Does society tell them that they should be building faster than light engines or super sweet audio components by surrounding them with computers/the internet and ibuds? Not really and this does have an impact. It doesn't kill off all prospective audio engineers (Especially the hobbyists), but I truly believe it's shrinking the pool of talent.

And the bright minds that do go into audio.. do they care about tubes? Do they care about utilizing an increasingly vanishing supply of "older" parts or really just what's the latest and greatest on the market? Do they even care about fidelity or just how to get rich quick or DRM making something that plays the radio/mp3s?

This just makes people like Kevin Gilmore, Justin, Filburt, amb, Doug (Dvsitskk okay I always forget how to spell this), cetoole (And more) that much more valuable and amazing to me.

So to me yes good dacs sound different. I wish they didn't since it would mean V win territory is getting closer to being reality, but I find that they do.

It took me a long time and meeting Filburt to really set aside moar money = win or specs = win (Specs are good but they are pretty abusable by selective disclosure and also fine print. Like the THD distortion #s I think for Benchmark being only with a 1 khz test tone rather then averaged out from performance related to multiple tones across the range).

When I could find something that was clear, super detailed, imaged well and yet had a musicality and tone and fullness and the ability to do speed with a big soundstage all in one package... but I did! A few things! And I have yet to hear anything that really has made me want to "upgrade" and best of all it was relatively cheap compared to some source components I've owned in the past.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Icarium

[The Monkey]

I know in the future I am going to try to be more objective with gear especially amps and DACs. We did a few double blind tests a while ago comparing some DACs and CDPs on a high end speaker system and it was difficult to distinguish the differences when we didn't know what we were listening to. The bias immediately entered the tests when we went back to traditional source switching.

^ This. My big DAC adventure was a good learning experience in that regard. At first, it was very frustrating because I had a hard time admitting that teh shiny new DAC (e.g., Bryston) maybe didn't sound as good as the cheaper old DAC. But once I sort of gave in and admitted that I just didn't like it as much as some other DACs regardless of price and/or shininess, it felt kind of liberating not to "have" to like it. It's amazing to me how difficult it is to overcome those biases. It is also consistently surprising to me how unwilling most people are to admit that they even have such biases, especially when a "review" or opinion about a piece of gear is at issue. I don't understand the defensiveness.

[Grahame]

^People don't like admitting they're wrong?

Or feel foolish, having spent over the odds?

Or define themselves by their purchases? so by attacking their purchasing decisions , they feel you are attacking them?

IMHO, YMMV

[deepak]

.

I think it's easier to do when you have a firm grasp of the nuances of the particular source unit, in our test it was just a bunch of us with our own sources that didn't know the intricacies of the others (well I knew the Naim pretty well). Sort of like when people started the ABX trials between -aps encoded MP3s and lossless. The differences between the two are subtle, but if you know what to listen for with known samples that causes the LAME encoder problems (artifacts?) you can reliably distinguish between the two.

DanC I think we go about finding "the sound" in a similar manner and look for the same things (but have very different tastes in music), so I can definitely appreciate your logic.

This just makes people like Kevin Gilmore, Justin, Filburt, amb, Doug (Dvsitskk okay I always forget how to spell this), cetoole (And more) that much more valuable and amazing to me.

Completely agree. I really enjoy KG's designs (another is Nelson Pass) and the sound that they go for is pretty much what I look for in high end gear. I can usually safely go out on a limb and trust either of their amps to suit my sound preferences.

Edited April 8, 2010 by deepak