MPX3 SLAM SE vs. Supra for Grados

[909]

Sorry, Bob, but I am done with this after this... \

Gee .... and can peoples opinions change some as they accumulate more experience?

Of course, I never said otherwise. But since you implied this it?s understandable that you might get lead to this conclusion.

Comparing apples with apples is the ONLY WAY to get a valid impressions. I dont know why you would argue and claim otherwise.

Apples to apples?amps to amps. Just like you compare the Hornet against other amps. I mean someone keeps everything in the chain the same and samples different amps.

You have a huge scattered response and I dont care to debate each point because that just leads to more spin.

This whole exchange started because you challenged my opinion that I think the HD25 is preferable to the Zana.

If you felt I challenged it that?s your impression, but I only was surprised by it. Especially based on what I?ve previously read and discussed with you. This is new news to me.

What because you feel most people would like the Zana better I have to?

Again I don?t feel this way, but apparently you may feel I implied it. I might have mentioned different preferences as different people do have them, you know.

But you fail to recognize other people who like the Zana may or may not do so for the sound quality either.

I didn?t fail to recognize this, it was the point I made. Do you think I meant to apply it to every thing, but EC? Silly.

Could that be the problem I am hearing? Definitely!

I trust you trust your ears and I?ll trust mine too.

You seem to have missed the fact that Mikhail is every bit as good a designer as Craig, if not better.

I didn?t miss it; I just didn?t mention.

Just because Mikhail is less well known....

I think he is better known around these parts. Don?t you?

You never faiil to mention his connections or associates.

Does it upset you? What?s wrong? And I don?t always mention, but have a few times.

Well, I am no respector of contacts and associations I simply want the product to deliver.

Me too. As do those contacts and associations.

When I listen to six different headphones and hear edgy treble with everyone of them, using a quality tricked out Denon source very similar to mine, with quality cables to feed the amp, I think I have the right to believe the amp has issues.

Funny it would be a tricked out Denon source. Because I had the same issues with my amp and the K701s when I listened to his mod 3910. I?ve an extremely sensitive ear. But I didn?t have the same issue with my Apollo. And in fact, swapping cables reduced the issue as well. My wife and digipete also noticed it.

I am not some noob. I am fifty years old and I have been listening to stereo gear since I was eight.

Never said you were and I know you?re not. So? I?ve started listening to audio equipment in my mother?s womb. My father plays many instruments and I?ve been playing guitar for over two decades, big deal?

With similar gear I do not hear the same problem with my seven SP amps.

And you used the same music, source, cables, headphones, etc? every time?

I am not mistaken.

never said you were. I am sure you hear it. And it likely could be the amp or the source or a combination of both? I?ve not heard the same thing when I listened to the ZD.

If you are in any way trying to do your usual veiled, weasle like spin to imply I am knocking the amp out of spite .... guess what you can kiss.

You sound pretty spiteful to me right now. But I do believe you are hearing something. I just recanted the facts as I know them to be based on your past posts about this amp. Your opinion has changed drastically. Don?t you think? I can?t be somewhat surprised without you leveling such crap my way.

Although it would be interesting to buy one just to shut you up. As I have no doubts about my conclusion.

That?s a very biased way to start off with an open mind about something. Is that what you want... to shut me up? I am not saying you?re wrong. I am suggesting that people have different preferences, hear things differently, system synergy is important, and it ?could? be the source too.

I dont hear things the same as you and worship at the EC alter.

That might be the issue or it could be that it could be the source or something else going on. I do like EC. I don?t worship. I took a lot of time and care making my amp purchase. And I?ve spent a great deal of time comparing amps with my set-up at the So Cal meet the night I slept over.

You dont own the amp and have minimal experience with the amp to begin with so why do you think you think I should?

I?ve spent a good amount of time with that amp. I?ve heard it at Craig?s place at least twice from more than a few hours each time. I?ve heard under ideal conditions at the meet location for about two hours. And then the following day for about 45 minutes to an hour. In fact, I don?t think you?ve even heard the production unit, which isn?t exactly the same as Mike?s.

Have you even heard the actual production amp?

If you arent sensitive to a harsher treble the amp may sound very good.

I am extremely sensitive to it. But I?ve had an experience where I thought it was an amp, but at a later date I?ve reconsidered my assumption and put it to the source. However, I wouldn?t every say that I know for sure that it wasn?t either one or both or a combination of things.

[Guest sacd lover]

Sorry, Bob, but I am done with this after this... \

Of course, I never said otherwise. But since you implied this it?s understandable that you might get lead to this conclusion.

Apples to apples?amps to amps. Just like you compare the Hornet against other amps. I mean someone keeps everything in the chain the same and samples different amps.

If you felt I challenged it that?s your impression, but I only was surprised by it. Especially based on what I?ve previously read and discussed with you. This is new news to me.

Again I don?t feel this way, but apparently you may feel I implied it. I might have mentioned different preferences as different people do have them, you know.

I didn?t fail to recognize this, it was the point I made. Do you think I meant to apply it to every thing, but EC? Silly.

I trust you trust your ears and I?ll trust mine too.

I didn?t miss it; I just didn?t mention.

I think he is better known around these parts. Don?t you?

Does it upset you? What?s wrong? And I don?t always mention, but have a few times.

Me too. As do those contacts and associations.

Funny it would be a tricked out Denon source. Because I had the same issues with my amp and the K701s when I listened to his mod 3910. I?ve an extremely sensitive ear. But I didn?t have the same issue with my Apollo. And in fact, swapping cables reduced the issue as well. My wife and digipete also noticed it.

Never said you were and I know you?re not. So? I?ve started listening to audio equipment in my mother?s womb. My father plays many instruments and I?ve been playing guitar for over two decades, big deal?

And you used the same music, source, cables, headphones, etc? every time?

never said you were. I am sure you hear it. And it likely could be the amp or the source or a combination of both? I?ve not heard the same thing when I listened to the ZD.

You sound pretty spiteful to me right now. But I do believe you are hearing something. I just recanted the facts as I know them to be based on your past posts about this amp. Your opinion has changed drastically. Don?t you think? I can?t be somewhat surprised without you leveling such crap my way.

That?s a very biased way to start off with an open mind about something. Is that what you want... to shut me up? I am not saying you?re wrong. I am suggesting that people have different preferences, hear things differently, system synergy is important, and it ?could? be the source too.

That might be the issue or it could be that it could be the source or something else going on. I do like EC. I don?t worship. I took a lot of time and care making my amp purchase. And I?ve spent a great deal of time comparing amps with my set-up at the So Cal meet the night I slept over.

I?ve spent a good amount of time with that amp. I?ve heard it at Craig?s place at least twice from more than a few hours each time. I?ve heard under ideal conditions at the meet location for about two hours. And then the following day for about 45 minutes to an hour. In fact, I don?t think you?ve even heard the production unit, which isn?t exactly the same as Mike?s.

Have you even heard the actual production amp?

I am extremely sensitive to it. But I?ve had an experience where I thought it was an amp, but at a later date I?ve reconsidered my assumption and put it to the source. However, I wouldn?t every say that I know for sure that it wasn?t either one or both or a combination of things.

Well you have managed to say a lot of nothing and I mostly have no idea what you are talking about. You make statements but never seem to have a point and never take a position. I try to understand your post and reply and your response is basically .... I didnt imply that, I never said otherwise, thats is your impression .... with just more questions for each question blah blah blah.

I will reply to one of your questions ..... Is that what you want... to shut me up?

Answer: yes .... when you can actually state your point and clarify your position then I will bother answering you.

[Guest sacd lover]

For Bob ..... sorry this took so long.

Slam SE: I have a Supra power transformer, two position voltage switch and a four position bias switch on my amp .... these two switches/ controls work only for the output tubes. I have the standard orange drop coupling caps and the blackgate cathode caps. I like the standard volume control. I added a loop out so I can drive a second amp from one source .... mainly because I have so many amps. I have a 12 volt option on the gain tube so I can use either 6 or 12 volt tubes for gain. I have a seperate 12 volt option for the output tubes but I have not used this as I always have the 6bl7gta's in the amp. I have all octal sockets in the amp which is standard. If I had this to do over I would skip the 12 volt option for the outputs and the bias switch. I use the low bias most of the time and this setting is the standard fixed bias on the amp.

This amp can use a wide range of tubes for gain: 1) 6cg7/6gu7/12fq7 with the 6cg7 adapter, 2) 6/12sn7 no adapter, 3) 7af7/7n7/14af7/14n7 with the loctal adapter, 4) run with the 6bl7's at low votage and low bias and using the ECC adapter .... the 6414 series .... including the 12av7/ 5965/6829/7026.

For output tubes: 1) you can use a 6sn7/12sn7 no adapter, 2) 5687/7044/7119 output tubes with a 5687 adapter, 3) 6bl7gt/6bx7gt/6bl7gta tubes again with no adapter needed. Alll the output tubes can run at 6 volts except the 12sn7 I never use.

I like a lot of the tube combinations but the one I use most is the RCA 12av7/ GE 6414W/ Amperex 7062 for gain .... with the 6bl7gta tubes for the output tubes. My alternate favs are the 7/14n7 for gain driving two 5687 tung sol D getter output tubes .... or a 12sn7gt for gain with 6bl7gta or 5687 output tubes.

The sound of this amp is very changeable depending on what type of tubes you use. To give you the amps sound I would have to specify each and every tube combo. So I am going to give you basic characteristics the amp displays regardless of the tubes used. 1) The amp is very dynamic, large bass transients hit hard and small dynamic twists are fully resolved; the amp has PRAT. 2) The amp has an open airy feel that is present even with tubes that do not throw a particularly big soundstage ... like a 6cg7. 3) The sound is very smooth and refined with no treble aggression AND no detail loss .... a particularly difficult feat to master and one of the main reasons I remain enamored with SP amps. You can get the amp to display an almost solid state like tonality and speed if you want to. 4) The amp has an ability to resolve detail without spotlighting or etching the treble; especially important with grados. 5) The midrange has both presence and dimensionality. The sound is not to close or to far away. Live recordings give you the feel you are in the venue. You sense the recorded space.

For grados I like the 5687 output tubes. The grados small soundstage and forward sound compliment the 5687 very well. I add an octal gain tube like a 12sn7 ($ to get a more airy and refined presentation .... or if I want to rock out I add a fast, clean gain tube like a 6gu7 ($6). The 6bl7gta output tubes are airier and bigger sounding but a tad slower .... so I like them with the higher gain 6414 series gain tubes .... that give the 6bl7gta more speed and slam. With senn 595's I typically like the 5687 output tubes once again. I prefer the 6bl7gta's with the senn 600's.

Advantages of the SLAM SE: 1) You can use virtually any tube with this amp .... even more so than SP amps in general. No other amp manufacturer offers the sheer number of tube choices and consequent fine tuning capability. 2) The amp can drive any headphone but the k1000's and sound exceptionally good doing so. 3) The amp is upgradeable and the seller backs the amps very well. He even fixed a used amp I bought that was damaged during shipping for free. Jacob can chime in that when there was a problem with his PPX3, Mikhail didnt just fix the amp, he built him a new one. This kind of backing is almost unheard of. 4) You can customize the amp but you will have nearly every option with the SE. I dont recommend paper-in-oil coupling caps. Tuberolling these caps is tough and the standard coupling caps are much easier to work with. 5) The amp has a very impressive appearance if that is important to you. 6) Most importantly, the amp has a sound quality that equals or bests anything out there.

Disadvantages: 1) He has to buld the amp and that takes time .... usually 3-4 more weeks more than he gives with his optimistic estimates. 2) The amp is revealing so you will hear any faults upstream. The amp scales with the source so, for good or bad, you need to feed the amp from a good source .... or buy a cheaper amp and save yourself some money. I didnt look at your profile so I dont know what you have. 3) his amp is expensive.

I will continue on but I have to do some things around the house first ....

[aerius]

I should probably make it clear that I'm not buying an amp to be used solely with Grados, but I definitely do want it to be able to drive the shit out of my RS-1s! I owned a Dynahi before, and it could do that without breaking a sweat, but I really want to try tubes for a warmer/more interesting sound. After the amp purchase, I intend to buy some K701s and branch out into other headphones to see what else there is out there.

The K701's didn't exist yet when I heard Biggie's amp in a similar state of moddedness to the one I linked. I did check it out with the Senn 580's and it was one of the best 580 amps I've heard. It had the power to fill in the midrange on the 580's along with the bass, lots of detail, soundstage and all that other stuff, so I imagine it would be similar with the K701's which in my experience have similar amp requirements. Bonus, it's also a speaker amp so you can drive speakers with it as well as the K1000 if you ever get that.

Issues. The amp can be modded such that it's optimized for Grados, and it'll crush every single amp I've ever heard with Grados. Unfortunately this leaves it without enough gain & dynamics to drive high impedance or insensitive headphones such as the 580 or K701.

[Guest sacd lover]

I'm still hoping I will get some decent impressions from the Florida meet in the thread on head-fi. This treble issue with the ZD doesn't sound good, especially if I'm going to be using it with Grados. I think I am guilty of the "ooh big tubes" mentality (seriously, same thing with the PPX EXTREME), and I don't want to put down $2000 based on that. I do have a few more days to decide, though.

To tell you the truth, I am rather wary of ordering the Space-Tech amp. The price configured the way I'd want it is not exactly cheap. There is also the issue that they are so little-known that I would have a lot of trouble selling it on head-fi if I ever decided I wanted something else (and would likely have to take quite a loss). They DO look interesting, though.

I'm actually leaning towards Singlepower again. I hope Mikhail will post his MOT thread, since the new amp sounds/looks interesting. It's definitely good to have more choices available, especially at the lower price point. I would be interested in hearing about the relative merits of this amp vs. an upgraded MPX3 (SLAM or SLAM SE).

Here is the a PPX EXTREME quote from PsychoZX ....

SinglePower Extreme - What a great amp. This thing is absolutely fantastic for its price. It drove the K1000s as good as i've ever heard them and it sounded great with just about every other headphone I tried with it (R10, HD600, HD650, 701, and Qualias). I have already told Mikhail that I want one.

The 6as7/6080 used in the Extreme has a very airy and refined treble in my Supra using this tube. There is nothing wrong with a big tube if the tube has quality as well as quantity. I like big tubes too if they are good sounding. The 6as7g can be had for $11 and the 6080 for as little as $8 each. These tubes are very available .... much easier to obtain a good 6as7 than a 6c33 .... and good tested 6c33's cost $30-40 each. The 6414 series are great gain tubes and very inexpensive too.

If you are wary of the Space tech .... dont buy one.

The Extreme will have more power than the SLAM SE; which has more power than the Zana if he is truly running the tube at only 6 watts plate dissipation. The Extreme will not have the same number of tube rolling possibilities as the SE. But the Extreme will have a huge number of choices compared to a Zana. The sound of the Extreme wil almost assuredly be at a level where unless you are doing a direct comparison you will never miss the slight differences. Choosing between the Extreme and these other more expensive amps saves you upwards $1000. You can likely get better overall sound buying an Extreme and using the rest of your budget to upgrade your source, cables etc....

I am #1 to order the Extreme. I have the SLAM SE and I still want one. I sold off a couple of my old chassis MPX3's to make room. I am adding a plitron transformer and keeping the amp stock otherwise. Depending on how good the latest transformer he is using happens to be I may go pure stock. I had Mikhail tell me that this amp is one of the best sounding amps he has built despite the relatively budget price. I dont think he plans on customizing this amp except for possibly the transformer though.

[deepak]

I just checked the Florida thread, the Extreme looks so awesome.

[Guest sacd lover]

I just checked the Florida thread, the Extreme looks so awesome.

Awesome indeed.

[deepak]

Awesome indeed.

I now see what you meant by SinglePower has a new high voltage amp coming out in my pm

Using the SP amp as preamp is the gain (of the preamp section) determined by the output tubes or the gain tube? As awesome as the old chasis SP amps look Earl I'm a little glad I was too slow on your MPX3, I'm really excited about this Extreme.

[KenW]

I just keep telling myself "I don't need this amp....I don't need this amp......." :(

[909]

I am not convinced. I am not convinced.

We don't need a lot, yet it's wanting more that's the killer.

[Guest sacd lover]

I now see what you meant by SinglePower has a new high voltage amp coming out in my pm

Using the SP amp as preamp is the gain (of the preamp section) determined by the output tubes or the gain tube? As awesome as the old chasis SP amps look Earl I'm a little glad I was too slow on your MPX3, I'm really excited about this Extreme.

I think I said high power .... but I have typed some weird mistakes lately. Actually the output tubes are low voltage tubes and run at only 150 volts. This amp is about power. The 5998 will dissipate around 25 watts total per tube. The 6bl7gt's only dissipate around 16-18 watts per tube; the 5687 dissipates 7.5 watts per tube. I see that people at the Florida meet used k1000's with the amp and apparently the amp drove them very well. When Mikhail made the original amp about 2 years ago the idea was to drive the k1000's. But he told me he detuned the new version at the Florida meet to sound better for normal dynamic headphones. Even detuned the amp must still have serious power to drive k1000's well.

The amp wasnt designed with a preamp in mind. The preamp output, if any, would come off the output tubes. Mikhail probably has or could create some solution. The Space tech Lab amp I have uses the 6as7/ 5998 output as a transformer coupled preamp .... so it can be done a number of ways.

I paid for mine a couple weeks ago so I hope I get the first one. He did a couple unique circuit changes that I am sure result in this amp having so much transparency using the 5998 tube; which normally can sound somewhat cloudy to me. This amp could very well be better sounding the the PPX3 SLAM and it is certainly far more powerful. I have heard the tube in my Supra and the sound was maybe the best I have ever heard with my senn 600's.

Good job Mikhail!!!

[Bob_McBob]

Would you buy this over the SLAM SE if price wasn't an issue? Is having more power really beneficial if you don't intend to run K1000s off it?

On another note, I've been looking at McAlister Audio, but I don't really know how philodox's amp ended up. The guy seems to know what he's doing, and his amps certainly LOOK impressive, but it's the same situation as Space-Tech, I guess. Well, on a more positive note he is at least local (ish), so I might see if I could go for a listening session...

[KenW]

I have heard the tube in my Supra and the sound was maybe the best I have ever heard with my senn 600's.

In a Supra? Do tell! I haven't looked this tube up yet but now my curiosity is aroused!

[aerius]

On another note, I've been looking at McAlister Audio, but I don't really know how philodox's amp ended up. The guy seems to know what he's doing, and his amps certainly LOOK impressive, but it's the same situation as Space-Tech, I guess. Well, on a more positive note he is at least local (ish), so I might see if I could go for a listening session...

Standard disclaimer, I heard his amp when it was so fresh it wasn't even funny, as in single digit hours on it. Sounds great with Senn 580's and K340's, but it had issues with Grados. Bass wasn't quite there and there was some colouration/thinness in the upper bass/lower midrange. Not that great of a match, wouldn't recommend it with RS-1's.

[Guest sacd lover]

Would you buy this over the SLAM SE if price wasn't an issue? Is having more power really beneficial if you don't intend to run K1000s off it?

On another note, I've been looking at McAlister Audio, but I don't really know how philodox's amp ended up. The guy seems to know what he's doing, and his amps certainly LOOK impressive, but it's the same situation as Space-Tech, I guess. Well, on a more positive note he is at least local (ish), so I might see if I could go for a listening session...

The amp isnt just more powerful it sounds great too. More power means deeper bass, more slam and better bass contol with any headphone. I could really hear this with the 5998 tube in my Supra using senn 600's. I dont have this actual amp yet and I love the features of my SLAM SE .... so I dont know how to answer you. The SLAM SE is an extremely powerful headphone amp in its own right. Until I hear the amp I dont know which I will prefer and price IS an issue. I see advantages to both. Extreme .... great sound / lower price/ minimal features and options vs SLAM SE .... great sound/ higher price/ lots of features. Remember, you are talking to a guy that has to have them all.

[Guest sacd lover]

In a Supra? Do tell! I haven't looked this tube up yet but now my curiosity is aroused!

You have to have the amp redone to use this 6as7/5998/6080 series tube. The tube would burn up the power resistors in about one minute. Plus, you need to make some other circuit changes and a different low voltage power transformer works much better. A lower voltage power transformer reduces heat buildup from all the heat dissipation caused by dropping the voltage to the output tubes all the way down to 150 volts.

[hungrych]

My MPX3 SE upgraded for 7802's would still be better than the PPX3E right?

[KenW]

You have to have the amp redone to use this 6as7/5998/6080 series tube. The tube would burn up the power resistors in about one minute. Plus, you need to make some other circuit changes and a different low voltage power transformer works much better. A lower voltage power transformer reduces heat buildup from all the heat dissipation caused by dropping the voltage to the output tubes all the way down to 150 volts.

Yeah...just came from the TDSL/Duncan site. First thing I saw was the 150V. Still, I'm pretty darned happy with this amp. Not much I could want to change about this one.

[Guest sacd lover]

My MPX3 SE upgraded for 7802's would still be better than the PPX3E right?

Oh yeah. You know I think Chris should ask about doing a SLAM SE like yours .... but with the less expensive 6as7/5998. Hmmmm .... you have me thinking now. \

[philodox]

Standard disclaimer, I heard his amp when it was so fresh it wasn't even funny, as in single digit hours on it. Sounds great with Senn 580's and K340's, but it had issues with Grados. Bass wasn't quite there and there was some colouration/thinness in the upper bass/lower midrange. Not that great of a match, wouldn't recommend it with RS-1's.

Yeah, I don't think any of the impressions from that meet are really accurate as it has changed quite a bit through burn in. I also got some new 6GU7 tubes and guess what... EARL WAS RIGHT. Listening to a matched quad of Sylvania 6GU7's right now and the bass has really tightened up. Haven't given the RCA's a spin yet.

I will probably have Peter finish the amp in a week or two... just waiting on a couple jacks to come in the mail.

PS. My new key start power switch [rated at a higher voltage] just arrived from KG... thanks Kevin!

[Bob_McBob]

Standard disclaimer, I heard his amp when it was so fresh it wasn't even funny, as in single digit hours on it. Sounds great with Senn 580's and K340's, but it had issues with Grados. Bass wasn't quite there and there was some colouration/thinness in the upper bass/lower midrange. Not that great of a match, wouldn't recommend it with RS-1's.

I did read about the Grado issues, and I wasn't thinking of buying the same amp. It was more the idea of a custom amp, or fully customized amp from a place within driving distance. I'm not really sure how well philodox's experience went. Anyway, just a wild random idea.

Oh yeah. You know I think Chris should ask about doing a SLAM SE like yours .... but with the less expensive 6as7/5998. Hmmmm .... you have me thinking now. \

Me too

Ahh, I love how my opinion sways from day to day. I'm still waiting to see much in the way of useful impressions from that meet thread, but I guess I will probably defer to your judgement on the ZD issue. I just need to stop looking at photos: "ooh... pretty... big tubes..." If I am not going to pick up a ZD, there is plenty of time to decide what to do in the way of a Singlepower amp -- for instance, waiting for a decent used deal to come along that I could have upgraded. Please do continue your thoughts on the upgrade ideas

[tkam]

My MPX3 SE upgraded for 7802's would still be better than the PPX3E right?

The 7802's sound great in my new amp .

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

I heard Philodox's amp after it was burned in, and it was the best I've heard the k340's, but it wasn't making magic with the ps-1's. I can say that now that I have a reference point with my amp back. Bass was just too uncontrolled and not mazimizing what the ps-1 bass does well (tunefulness and picking up subtle tonal changes) . The amps frequency response sounded flat across the board, but vocals took on more of a vividness then I've heard from any ss amp. Depth was protrayed very well with the amp, and I didn't detect any harshness. The amp was able to keep up with all the music I tried it with the ps-1, though the k340's couldn't keep up with the faster material. Highs were plenty extended (more extended then my amp). I didn't notice any bass extension problems during my audition, but I think its safe to say my amp does reach lower with the ps-1s. Overall the amp has a nice clean sound to it with a large headstage/soundstage portrayl and detail on par with anything I've heard.

Biggie.

[Guest sacd lover]

Yes and no. The amp has a circuit similar to the ppx3 but this one has one major difference. I know the difference but I think he wants to release that info in his sale thread.

I saw a quote from the meet thread on head-fi that said the circuit has little in common with the PPX3. So apparently he has changed the circuit some more. It also looks like the amp is just going to be called the "Extreme".

[JBLoudG20]

I will probably have Peter finish the amp in a week or two... just waiting on a couple jacks to come in the mail.

Yeah I think I'm going to send you those seperately... I don't knwo what up with drew... but I think I need to start contacting Cardas directly for my wire from now on.