[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

you know, you're right. i think you do need a brief time out period to decide whether your presence beings anything to this community. thinks for bringing it up.

So that's your excuse for editing other people's profile about double blind, which I never claim I did.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

i concede the point. that's a lesson, too, but for you.

faded away? hardly. the Apple we know now is a direct descendant of the Newton. the clean design aesthetic of many current Apple products was ushered in with the Newton, and the Newton gave Apple early portable industrial design experience (you of course know Jonathon Ive designed the Newton, i'm sure) and helped allow the company to avoid missteps when it reentered the portable market, the market that has taken Apple from being a relatively minor computer company to a dominating juggernaut. the human/machine interface of the Newton was also a proving ground for software and ergonomic techniques and ideas, many of which Apple has used to build devices that shine most brightly due to their elegant interactivity. if that is fading away then your inductive reasoning is solid and your conversational skill pithy. now, if you'll pardon me, there is a dust mote over in the corner that seems to present more intellectual elasticity than just about anything you've posted in the last several thread pages, so i'm going to divert my attention.

Well, don't let me hold you back.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

one would imagine that, if the expensive caps do indeed perform better, then there would still be a increase in performance when both types of caps are equally handicapped. it's a valid control.

you apparently know very little about the Apple Newton. first, it wasn't designed by a committee any more than any other highly technical and complicated technology is (in fact, it was John Sculley's baby the way the iPod and the original Macintosh were Steve Jobs' babies), and it was hardly a failure, ushering in many new technologies and showing that a PDA could be a practical product, even in an imperfect early version. where do you get this stuff?

Clearly you do not know most of those sockets available on the market will become so loose in about 20 inserts and pulls that it is no longer useful for anything other than recycling material. If you don't understand the failure mode of the parts in the middle, and how they work, then I really would suggest that you check those out and perhaps study how those could affect the test result before offering them as a solution. Since it is clearly not a solution at all but another bigger can of worms.

As for Apple Newton, it is still a failure, it failed. It ushered in a lot of technology, but was not able to remain viable. And faded away in history with nothing more than some technical firsts to its name.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

if only there were some kind of socket and pin system that could be used...

that would be another control invalidation, regardless of your anecdotal experience.

most of them already do. there are only so many ways to design and build a good amplifier. i personally doubt that many could give a reliable preference between two reasonably designed and built amps of reasonably similar capabilities in a proper double blind. the differences, really, are all in our heads. experts can't even reliably tell whether somebody is playing a Strad or a dime store fiddle when they are merely separated from the player by a cloth curtain. and double blinds in wine testing are laughable, with experts not able to tell that they are tasting the same bottle of wine over and over. i think there are lessons to be learned here.

Socket and pins??? Are you kidding me? This is not some large filter caps that are placed far and away from the main circuit, this is decoupling cap, the contact performance is crucial here. Degrading it with a socket and pin just makes the test pointless.

Design by committee is one way to fail, like Apple Newton.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

Yep to all of that. The BIG one to do at the design stage is to do experiments where you also try and disprove your hypothesis. Confirmation bias is a bitch, but do the negative tests in the first place and people can't challenge you.

My suggested test would be to swap the caps between the two units. See if the 'preferred' listening follows the caps or remains with the rest of the amp.

I'm not about to design a product or an experiment by committee, as the result is only used for internal use, I was only sharing some info with people here and again I'm not trying to write my PHD thesis here or publish a paper on AES or some scientific journal. The full detail of the test result is only used for development, and I doubt any manufacturer would really post all details on their tuning process for everyone to critique, comment, and change the whole deal with a ton of comment from the web.

Even if all those comments are good and valid, and with lots of manufacturer doing that, you'd likely end up with more than one manufacturer sounding close to the same, and the entire development cycle dragged on and on and on. That just doesn't work for any business, that only works if you got a lot of leisure time doing leisure pursuit.

As for comparing the caps' difference, your suggestion will actually make the test invalid, as constant resoldering and desoldering the cap will likely damage the cap from some point on. The better method is to install another set of the same cap on the second unit, and that is when the tester reported that the difference is getting hard to tell.

Yes, some may say that there can be differences between the same part, but finding out if the same batch of parts can have that much of a difference is also useful. Which we didn't find any meaningful difference between caps from the same batch.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

I seem to recall reading this on the DynaHi thread on hf. I was skeptical, but I do know that Dr. Gilmore used some crazy fast Illinois Caps in his original Dynalo supply psu (last caps in the PSU). Just curious how big of FMs you were using? 470uf I would guess... I thought I would try 100uf in the one I am nearing completion on, but might try some film in it and see if I hear anything.

I think I used 470uF FMs, those were physically pretty small ones. IMHO for analog stuff, stay away from caps with ultra-high high freq ripple current and almost no low freq ripple current, get ones that are somewhat more even.

If you plan to try a few different caps on the amp board itself, I'd suggest soldering it more or less like SMD parts, instead of sticking it through the mounting position and solder. Less wear and tear on the PCB when you switch to different caps. And when you decided on one, then do solder them via the through hole.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

I'm increasingly finding that less capacitance sounds better than more. For the currents needed for a low power headphone amp, try to keep it around 100uF. I'd be curious to hear what you think.

Same capacitor design with different capacitance can have different response to the same frequency input, and also like many have said before, cheaper cap with large capacitance is not as good as better (often more expensive) caps at lower capacitance.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

listen, buddy, i'm gonna use small words. you make claim. me say, experiment not good. you say me am not like you say experiment not good. me say here part how make experiment gooder. you say me have fact! you say me am science! me say here other problems. many problems. you say me am fix one part me am science! me say face palm.

Clearly rage has overcame you...

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

science works the other way around, typically. you aren't gonna get it anyway, or you wouldn't be saying the same things over and over, so i'm done here.

If you don't get it, you don't get it. What's not proven is not proven, it is not wrong or non-existent. Science does not work the way you think it works. Not to mention I have proven it's consistency and accuracy while all you were really saying is FUD.

If you are not able to prove or disprove anything, I'll have to ignore further similar messages from you, sorry.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

no. but neither can you. showing that the volumes are matched is a good step towards a controlled double blind, though, if you want to keep going with it. i probably wouldn't bother.

I have explained how the listener is consistent, you can't explain it away as a fluke, that is your problem, not really mine. I have told you the volume are extremely consistent, and explained why, you still don't want to believe in logic and fact. Yet, as seen in the photo, the volume is extremely consistent. Now please show me some beef in proving how is it possible for the listener to be extremely consistent in identifying the amp by sound, and yet still be a fluke?

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

the detailed info makes the test even more dubious. a blind test between close items (and we're talking about close items here, once the audio hyperbole is removed) typically creates simple preference results. highly detailed difference results suggest the possibility of subconsciously well-meaning confabulation.

your very presence in the room can create a perceptual bias, because the listener may know that you are expecting the expensive caps to sound better. in that kind of scenario, the listener latches on to any differences, objective or subjective, and attributes those differences (which, in this scenario will almost always be "positive differences [just look at burn in reports, for a similar phenomena]) to the expensive caps. making the test double blind doesn't completely remove this, as the person knows they are being tested, and will likely know the aim of the whole thing (something is supposed to sound better than something else), which is why every other aspect of the test has to be strictly controlled. there are hundreds of ways that non-obvious aspects of a test can invalidate the results, because humans are finicky creatures easily lead by internal subconscious bias and subtle external cues.

a habit is not a control. even if the listener doesn't know specifically what they are listening before, they are still obviously listening for something, which is why everything else has to be strongly controlled for the results to matter.

Your reasoning still does not explain how the listener is able to identify each unit by sound, as each time involves multiple listening sessions, with listener having no idea which is being listened this time around. During the entire time, the listener makes note on what is being heard, and I make note on which unit is being tested in what sequence.

When we've had 5~6 (anymore is just too taxing IMHO) sessions in a row, we stop and I compare the notes. And each time, the listener was able to identify the same unit with identical comment, sometimes even commented in the note that "did I just heard this at trial number x?". And no, the pause between sessions are under 20 secs, we don't sit down and compare note before the entire test run is done.

Now, can you explain how was the listener able to be extremely consistent?

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

Due to popular demand, the volume of the two unit with stepper are MATCHED, as shown below with both unit set to 8 notches from silent.

Both results are given about 20 second for the scope to average, with measurement resetted when a different unit is being probed.

Average RMS 2.09 vs 2.08

Now is someone going to complain about frequency generator's slightly different frequency average of 0.0208KHz?

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

that isn't what he asked.

does anybody else see the problem here?

it's invalid because you aren't controlling. the kind of well meaning test you're running is the kind of thing that gets people to believe in homeopathy. there is a big difference between "the test looks okay" and "the test is well designed and will produce reliable results," even if the differences between the two seem minor. it's fine if you believe in the results, but don't try to convince us of potentially dubious results that were obtained with potentially dubious tests.

it's entirely possible that the caps are doing what you say they are doing, but i see no evidence of it.

Well, no. The comment from listener is extremely detailed, the listener CAN and have reliably identified the 006++ unit with FPP cap and WIMA cap. The listener actually indicated the 006++ unit with WIMA cap having some traits that was heard on the original 006+ unit (which uses WIMA in the decoupling).

Now then, can you give me a hint on HOW I could have leaked any info on which machine was being listened when the listener don't even see me, don't even see the machines and was able to identify the unit out rather clearly day after day? We limited our communication to only what I have described above.

When listener is not SURE about what was being heard, the listener will say so, and have done so quite a lot of times. Sometimes the listener was tired and sometimes the difference is too small. The listener will only report when it is very clearly noticeable, and won't try to hear for something that wasn't there. We also have a habit of not revealing what was being improved and what I was hoping before or during the test.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

I'm not concerned about stepper to stepper matching, but amp volume to amp volume matching. Given the lack of fine granularity in level setting, I just can't imagine they're the same.

The amp's gain is set with a 1% precision resistor (0.1% on the ++ version), and in combination of a stepper, it will match to a degree that you won't believe.

Since the amp work in this fashion:

Input -> Volume control Pot -> Amplification circuit with feedback setting gain to a fixed setting -> output

Now, there are 3 variables in this equation.

Input = The same source, same cable, so there won't be any difference, since it is the same unit.

Volume control pot = Since each step is extremely consistent from unit to unit, 3 steps on one will come within about 1% of the other unit's 3 steps. Normal film pot have larger channel mismatch than that.

Amp's feedback setting/gain = set using 1% (006+) or 0.1% (006++) resistor, this also makes the amp's gain extremely precise from unit to unit.

Now, with all three variable firmly fixed, I can't imagine how a noticeable difference in volume can be achieved when two units in question are done in that fashion. Now with the original unit using film pot, I can't say for sure. However, the listener indicates that the difference between the original unit and the upgraded unit using stepper is quite clear, sound quality difference is very noticeable. The listener like the smooth volume control of the original unit, while liking the stepper's sound.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

When the listener is able to clearly identify the units day after day, comment remain the same from the first test to the last, no matter what volume (within reason of course), I was pretty convinced that the listener is not getting the placebo. All I tell the listener is "done, you can start", and all the listener tell me is "volume up/down", "I'm done". There are no visual cues, I even step back from the test area and observe the listener from a bit of distance (making sure the listener is not looking at the machines, which the listener never did look.).

Now, with the listener able to identify the 3 test units consistently day after day, with no visual, verbal or even body language cues. How does it get completely invalid? I'm not planning on writing an AES report or a science project, but to get useful information when tuning. True, it is not as air-tight as would be needed by the standard of a science report, but all I need is reliable info on tuning, not something to publish paper with.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

did you measure the output of each at the specified level to verify the levels match? Given the steppers, it seems really unlikely that they're exactly matched.

Actually the steppers are made with 1% SMD resistors, and is extremely consistent at each step. Two added bonus with this stepper is that, since it uses SMD resistor, it is inherently non-inductive, and since it IS a stepper, it will have extremely good L-R balance. (unlike film type pots)

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

the lack of real volume control completely invalidates your results.

What real volume control? The stepped volume control have extremely precise setting each step, and when compared, they ARE set at the same level. As for the original unit, the listener can reliably identify the unit day after day, the comment did not change over the days of testing that we have done here.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

Put me in the 'or not' camp.

Well, you can build a DynaHi and find out if I'm kidding or not. I used to think those won't make that much of a difference, and learned the hard way by wasting a lot of time trying to see what other parts are causing the problem.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

that doesn't sound like a particularly good test protocol, especially if there was any conversation between you and the listeners.

The only thing we ever talked is volume higher or lower, and I'll set it for the listener, and also the listener indicates that I can switch to another unit after the listener have heard enough in one run. As for switching, I decide which to switch, and if I even switch at all, while listener only assumed that I switched to another unknown unit.

When I switched back to an unit that the listener have heard, I often get the comment that this unit is "surprisingly like one of the earlier one that was used", which was quite true as it was the same unit.

I'll list the routine of the test:

All unit is burned in with random music from my Rio Karma at least overnight, and all left their power on for quite a long time to keep the class A setup warm and ready to go.

1. I hand listener the headphone (Music ][ and ER4P), set amp to minimum volume and insert phone plug.
   
2. Listener indicated the volume to be turned up till listener says stop.
   
3. The music used in the tested is restarted from the beginning.
   
4. The listener indicated that the basic performance of the current setup is noted, and can go on to the next setup
   
5. I switched gear (sometimes not, but just make the same noises that switching gears normally makes)
   
6. Go back to step 2 until consistent result is achieved.
   

If listener cannot reliably identify the difference of two units, that basically means I've pretty much reached the point where it is not going to make enough of a difference anymore. (Or the listener is tired, which the test will be done at a later time.)

All the while the listener is back toward the equipment, and nothing else was talked. All idle equipment are still powered on while the session is in progress, so that the next time it is listened, it will require no warm up time. And oh, I also use the same ONE power cable from the same one socket on the wall for the unit currently being listened, so I also switch the power cable around as well as the RCA cable and phone cable. I'm not sure if the mini power cable would make enough of a difference, but switching that around is simple and quick, and with just a few seconds of power-down, the transistor won't take more than a few seconds to warm up to the original temp too.

Believe me that I want to know the TRUE result even more than you do, as good parts ARE expensive, and I don't intend to spend the budget on parts that makes little to no difference. I tried very hard in keeping the test result uncontaminated, and the listener too is quite interested in finding out if there's actually a difference. It was actually the listener who have suggested that the session will be done with back toward the equipment, and thus there will be no visual cues about which unit is being used.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

Forgive my skepticism, but what benefit could possibly be gained from custom caps in a fully DC-coupled amplifier?

Power supply of course, believe it or not, but I've found DynaLo and DynaHi family of amp to be extremely sensitive to caps. When I was first building my DynaHi a few years back (was 2006 I think), I installed two Panasonic FM caps on each DynaHi amp board... Well, DynaHi sounded every bit like the transistor amp that tube lovers hate, it was cold, gritty, harsh, and overly bright. I spent a lot of time checking out a LOT of stuff, nothing helped. At the end, I decided that the Panasonic FM caps is about the only thing that I haven't swapped out, and I bit the bullet there by swapping in some rather expensive ROE boutique electrolytic caps. The result? Well, the guy who got that DynaHi from me is happily taking that DynaHi around to his friend's place for shoot outs, and he is winning most of the time, and on rare occasions, there might be a tie or a lose, but that's usually against rivals costing 2 to 3 times the price of the DynaHi that I sold him.

After that, I did not go on build more DynaHi anymore, because it was more of a challenge to build one of those amps at least once, and learn something in the process. And boy did I learn a lot from building DynaHi.

The actual blind listening test is done with a good HDD player (FLAC files)and a PCM1794 DAC as a source, the custom cap actually contributes a lot to the sonic performance of the amp. We compared a fully upgraded HA-006++ and a similarly upgraded unit but uses the original WIMA MKS caps in the power decoupling, and the result was quite clear. I did not do the listening myself, but I did the switching around and the setup, all with the listener's back toward the equipment. I switched around randomly, and the listener is able to consistently pick out the difference between 006+, 006++ with WIMA and 006+ with FPP cap. I did try to tune it further, but it was getting to the point of diminishing returns at this point unless we redo the entire setup and go for a bigger unit with even beefier power.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

Well, here's a bit of a teaser for you all on some the HA-006++'s upgraded parts.

Click photo for a slightly larger photo...

Here's the new RCA socket, custom ordered caps, and 21 stepped pots... There'll be more parts coming too, some will stand out rather clearly when you compare two version's photo, while some are quite stealthy... (like resistors... virtually all resistor are upgraded to higher spec ones, but it's really difficult to tell them apart if you are just looking... )

Estimated price for HA-006++ should be around $450USD plus shipping.

Enjoy.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

What you describe reminds me of the Goldpoint, which IIRC is somewhat as you describe. When I had one, it took a bit of use to settle down. Fair call on your comments on those attenuators though -- if they are crap they are crap and making a mistake deciding to use them is just that.

Well, when I first used the stepped attenuator a while back, it did bring a marked improvement in sound, and I thought I'd get used to the booms and large step size. (Which is what most people think they will do when they first got their stepped attenuator.) Well, I ended up taking the stepper off my headphone amp and got myself a nice cosmos (the same one used in KECES HA-171) pot instead. What I'm trying to say is that it would not be easy to determine if that stepper will be easy for user to get used to until quite a few had a chance to use one or more for a while. Tho from what I can see with my current one, it is pretty promising.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

For modifying gain, I guess that can be done with a switch, but it would not be ideal if you have to pull a wire to get it to a switch somewhere. Because this would mean that you got two great big antenna in your feedback loop. I'll see if there's other possible way to do it in the future tho. However, the stepper basically means that the first quarter of the pot is just as good as the rest of the pot (not to mention the stepper sounds way better even when compared to the pot in its "good" range), thus it would not making gain switching as critical as with regular pot. Which is what I'm hoping that people who don't need as much gain would feel this change is going to be useful to them.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

^^ This - it is simple to remove the entire locking mech, flip the jack 180 degress so the empty recess faces down and you're done.

I'll see if I can keep the latch in place and disable the mechanism somehow, if I remember correctly, the latch locks the plug in place with a lobe on the plastic shaft. If it is as I have remembered, it could be as easy as taking the locking latch off and snip off the lobe on its shaft and stick it all back together. The locking latch will feel exactly the same as before, with the over-stiff spring feel and all, but won't do anything for locking the plug in.

[New, Cheap Dynalo...]

That sounds like a pretty nice stepper. But if it's all SMD, then does it really need to be limited to such a modest number of steps? I realize that more steps would make it more costly, of course, but in terms of physical dimensions can one with more steps be fit into the present case?

The supplier indicated that more steps can be done, but that's how he made it from the start, so I'm sticking to what he have on hand. If all goes well, I think in a couple of years it might be feasible to ask the supplier to OEM a stepper with more steps. For now I'll just see if people like this stepper as much as I do.