NwAvGuy

Yeah, well, I figured that was coming. Looks pretty one sided taken out of context. But I'm not supposed to defend myself here. So I'll just lay here bleeding on the sidewalk while you all have your fun kicking the shit out of me. EDIT: And it's probably way too much ask... But if someone who gets some respect around here and understands the engineering side of things wants to read through that thread it might be useful to hear their opinion of the facts before I'm tried and hung.

And, for what it's worth, I didn't start out to "attack Ti". I wrote up a an honest review, that included the good with the bad about the Mini3. I even said good things about the AMB website in general at the start of the review. And I concluded saying the Mini3 was a decent choice for many higher impedance cans. It was my hope someone might try to verify at least some of my findings, and Ti would say something like "oops, I guess I need to fix those numbers". That's a relatively happy ending for everyone. EDIT: Shortened by popular demand. The ending wasn't happy.

I didn't say that. Just give me time. Part of the problem is my own budget. I can't afford to buy $1000+ gear for the sole purpose of exposing it as complete garbage. This isn't a business for me. Nobody's paying me. Manufactures generally don't like me. I don't even have any ad revenue. And, as was pointed out earlier, I'm just "some guy". So I'm testing more modest gear, for now, as it comes across my bench, or stuff I actually have a use for personally.

I guess I have a soft spot for DIYers. Not only do I know ones who eat boxed Mac & Cheese most nights so they can save enough to build a 3 channel Beta22, buy they often invest hundreds of hours of labor into their efforts. If you buy a NuForce uDAC-2, and decide 10 dB of channel balance error sucks, you can just send it back. But you can't do the same thing with a Mini3. Even if you find a buyer, you're still out a whole bunch of time. So, to me, the DIY builders deserve more honesty than usual in making their choices. EDIT: And I sort of have a problem treating some people/vendors/whatever differently than others. That's a big reason why there's a lot of crap on the market that few cry BS on. Most are afraid to say seriously bad things about Bose, or Apple, or Monster products for example. Tyll should get an award for saying what he has about the Beats. I really want to just tell it like it is and not play favorites.

I'm genuinely open to suggestions. Tyll might have some input here, as he sort of does this stuff for a living? And, for what it's worth, I value Tyll's work a lot. Like I said, I'm all for more measurements even if I'm not the guy making them. They just need to be at least semi-correct. I'd love someone else to take over what I'm doing so I can retire my flack jacket. But just because AMB has a loyal fan club doesn't mean they're exempt from publishing reasonably accurate information. So how does one diplomatically tell someone a lot of their numbers and objective claims are BS when that someone knows they have a solid rep, lots of supporters, and has previously denied similar complaints?

You really don't want me to answer that... Sound like a good plan, thanks.

The E5 isn't without its flaws either, but it's generally the better measuring amp into typical portable headphone loads of 16 or 32 ohms. Into 64+ ohms the Mini3 has a clear advantage over the E5 but less so over the E7.

I'm all for someone else running the same measurements. That's exactly what I'm trying to promote more of. Ok... here's where I risk being perceived as an "arrogant prick" trying to defend myself against the last several posts questioning my recent blog articles... let me try to be as factual as possible. This probably should be in a different thread but here goes... A lot of DIYers are "builders"--they simply build the supposedly proven designs of others. I believe those investing their time and money into someone else's DIY design might be interested in an independent objective evaluation. I was honestly surprised about AMB. I have said a lot of complimentary things about the website in the past. I figured if the designs delivered the published performance numbers they must be pretty decent overall. So I thought the Mini3 would make a good review. The reality is the Mini3 doesn't come close to a lot of AMB's published measurements. It turns out some of them are not even possible in theory. There was nothing wrong with my specific Mini3 (the missing diode has no effect when a battery is installed). In researching for the review, I found Ti Kan has been challenged before on some of the same issues, and in the threads I've seen, he's defended his claims with a lot of hand waving and then typically refusing to discuss it further. I thought about contacting him first, but decided I didn't want to go down that road, only to likely end up publishing the same review anyway. I tried that with NuForce and it just made for even more drama and lots of time consuming emails with NuForce asking for all sorts of details. I could be more polite about it, and perhaps I should. But boring stuff doesn't seem to get read these days. Most posts on this forum, for example, strive for the opposite of "classy" or polite. I'm trying to present a brain numbing laundry list of measurements in ways that hopefully keep it interesting enough some might actually want to read it. I'm open to alternative ways of doing that if my current "theatrics" are a poor approach? I do want to see if I can easily "pre publish" blog articles privately. That would allow say AMB to review a draft before it goes live. The bottom line is, after digging a bit deeper, there are many bold claims on the AMB website that don't survive EE101 even in the best possible case--let alone the real world. I think that's misleading for a lot of DIYers and deserves some attention. You don't have to agree with me, but that's what's behind the last two blog articles.

Thanks. Just to be clear I wasn't trying to imply you are a manufacture who got it wrong just that I'm less than popular with a few that have. So my apologies if you took it that way. Mainly I was trying to ask if enough others share your view.

Point taken. And thanks. Like I said, I'm still learning. It's never my goal to be closed minded, and it's rare that I'm trying to be an ass, but perceptions are everything and I clearly need to change my approach. Part of my problem here was assuming I was "in" when it's now crystal clear I'm still very much an outsider to this group.

You're a manufacture here. I have no idea if that changes your view of me and my blog but it's no secret I'm into objective reviews of gear. In some cases, I've been less than charitable when manufactures get it wrong. And, as a rule, audio manufactures seriously dislike blind tests. So I'm sure some manufactures would love to see me fuck off and disappear. I'm trying to add more science to what's mostly a very subjective area. And, just like Peter Aczel didn't win any popularity contests, I don't expect to either. But I'm not trying to stir shit up just for the point of stirring it up. Like Aczel, I'm just trying to review popular stuff and put the facts out there. It might be comparing two headphone amps, exploring design topologies, correlating measurements with perceived sound quality, and yes, blind listening tests. I'm just a few months into this and learning a lot. I know I'm not the only engineer or person here capable of making measurements, but we're a relatively small minority. The bias will always be heavily towards the subjective side of the scale and that's fine. But it seems there's room for more objective contributions. If the general consensus is I should "fuck off" and give up on Head-Case, I'll be happy to. That was my impression before, some said I was just being thin skinned, so I came back for more abuse and inadvertently found plenty. So feel free to vote me off the island if I don't have enough to contribute and I'll get my abuse elsewhere. If the consensus is I should stick around, I'll try to keep in mind the constructive comments previously directed my way and hopefully find some appropriate niche here.

That makes sense. I was referring to say carrying a laptop around that needs help from a DAC. You plug the E7 into the laptop via USB, plug your headphones into the E7, and enjoy. Lots of people buy E7's (or uDAC-2's) to do just that. I really didn't understand your point so my apologies for the less than helpful response. It's a portable piece of gear, this is the portable forum, so I was assuming portable use.

I've tried to contribute here and that's been, at best, a mixed bag. The start of this thread is a good example. I've tried sarcasm, which seems to be the preferred method of communication on Head-Case, and that's been a bust. And, I've tried standing up for myself but that just makes me a "contentious prick". Sure I get there's a double standard but the rest seems mostly random. I'm not so stupid as to think trolling of any sort is going to fly here--especially when I'm already not scoring many points. I was, and still am, entirely serious about a blind test. As Deepak said, it's a great way to compare gear. I think it would be really interesting to have someone who's actually respected here weigh in on the E7 in a blind test. I'm not getting much of any respect so I was looking for someone like Tyll who has plenty.

I'm an engineer. Hyperbole isn't even in our vocabulary. But we can still be useful. I'm just trying to "fit in" as advised. The question was rather open ended. How would you answer: Tyll seems like a good guy. I've got nothing against him at all. He seemed like an obvious choice but I'm open to others. My main goal here is to prove a point, not free publicity. Hits to my blog don't get me anything. Like you said, I'm just "some guy".

If you review the last 4 pages of this thread, Tyll is the one being "picked on"? Really? What's with the double standard here? You all get to flip shit at me, ask me to grow a pair, but when I do, that's not cool either? It's not hypothetical at all. Denver. October 14th, 15th, or 16th. Pick the day.

I'm fully expecting some form of "no response"... Many here talk a mean talk I'm just curious if anyone is willing to put their ears and rep/cred on the line? Or will the challenge just be ignored? Seriously, this forum is full of posts about all the obvious differences between headphone amps. So how hard can it be to distinguish a $99 Chinese mainstream mid-fi crap amp/DAC from a genuine high-end amp? It should be easy right? I got trashed for even suggesting the E7 is respectable. I'm just asking for someone to help verify it really *does* obviously suck. Tyll is perfect. He does this stuff for a living.

I was just trying to put a $99 portable DAC/amp in proper perspective. I listen to the headphone output of a $1600 Benchmark DAC1 Pre at home. Do I think it exceeds the point of diminishing returns in terms of accuracy and transparency? I do. Is the real "inflection point" at a far lower price point than $1600? Probably. Is it black and white? No.

Ok, Mr Hertsens... let's say we're in the same city sometime... you game for some blind testing? Say my shit, crap, worthless, junk, wanker FiiO E7 vs something WAY more expensive and Head-Case Elite Blessed? Let's see you MAN UP to a blind test? Regardless of the outcome, you publish the video on Inner Fidelity, and I do the same on my blog. You game old man? Put your reputation on the line?

Isn't this a headphone forum? Isn't the whole point to drive headphones? Especially for portable gear? Like I want to carry around 3+ devices all wired together? The fewer the better for portable use.

I've been told I have "less product listening experience and reputation for knowing what sounds good than my readers", called "dim", "an ass", "blind", accused of not having any known good devices, faulted for minor semantics, told I only test products that sound like shit, and more--all in just this thread. Filbert tosses this out for good measure: Implying I'm ignorant of product design when, in reality, I've done plenty of it. I try to defend myself and he responds with: Seriously? Who's being called ignorant? And isn't lecturing is a one sided process where one person talks and everyone else mostly just listens? I thought some reading the Portable Audio forum might be interested in some hard numbers on a piece of portable audio gear. Not into it? Move on. But, instead, I get slammed, called names, accused of being ignorant, and backed into a corner. But trying to defend myself and responding with facts is "lecturing" and implying others here are ignorant. Limp was onto something: From where I sit, Head-Case is more of a closed social club than an open audio forum. I have no idea if I just don't fit in, facts and audio engineering are not welcome here, I'm too much of a geek, got off on the wrong foot, don't make fart jokes, or what. But it's clear many here would prefer I just go the fuck away. Trying to defend myself further seems pointless. So, whatever. You guys can celebrate running another one out of town and go back to your regularly scheduled programming.

On the first point, I've already revised the review to try and make it more obvious the bulk of my praise is relative to the product category. I've done quite a bit of research into audible levels of distortion and I'm always interested in new information. Based on everything I know to date, there's a fairly clear consensus you reach a point of diminishing returns somewhere in the0.05% to 0.01% region. 0.001% is 100 dB below the signal. I challenge anyone here to play something as loud as they like, then reduce the level 100 dB and tell me what's left could be objectionable underneath the previous listening level. Most volume controls only go down to around -80 dB (if that far) before they mute. 100 dB is huge. So arguing advantages to anything lower is difficult. The rest of your point about correlating other measurements with perceived sound quality is a whole 'nother can of worms. And that's an area where things like blind testing can be seriously valuable. I don't think anyone has all the answers. But most non-linearities show up to varying degrees not in just one but in a variety of measurements. And by doing enough measurements, in the right ways with the right results, you can have reasonable confidence a piece of gear will be audibly transparent. Some things, like alien abductions, seem to eternally defy objective proof. But it's difficult for audio gear to do much wrong and not leave some telltale sign somewhere in a full suite of solid measurements. I've already invested more time than I planned for a $99 DAC, but for a more worthy cause, there's more that can be done to objectively evaluate audio gear. And one of those things is blind testing--ideally with a range of listeners. And as for my own designs, I've done several. And I've done a lot of tweaking. And while I do plenty of "sighted" listening, where I deviate from most, is I don't trust myself not to be biased when I know what "tweak" I'm listening to. I've built 2 identical designs of some things just so I could ABX the two of them in blind testing (for my ears and those of others). One is the baseline, and the other gets the latest tweak. The results are often dramatically different than the "sighted" perceptions. But that's old news. Listener bias has been really well documented and proven. It's almost impossible to remove in a sighted test.

That's good feedback. Thanks. I was trying to convey it's a relatively high performance device and might have missed that mark. I'm hoping for some better perspective. Stuff that's routinely dismissed as garbage often is far hard to tell apart from megabuck gear. If you... ...couldn't hear any difference, that would be a useful result. It means the E7 can hold its own at least under some circumstances. Many here seem to think it would FAIL. ...barely hear a difference because they're so close that also casts the E7 in a decent light. ...hear a difference but find it tough to pick a preference, or you choose the E7 as your favorite, that's also telling. ...easily pick the more expensive DAC as your favorite that helps validate the more expensive product in an unbiased way. I'm sure many here don't think that's necessary, but in my experience, few have done any serious blind listening tests. It's gratifying when they confirm your beliefs and listening abilities.

Agreed. I don't consider it an audiophile-class device either. I'm only praising its performance relative to the price. There are plenty of reasons to want something better. But I do think, used within its limitations, it would be harder to tell apart from more expensive gear than many realize.

Yeah. I've been into high-end audio since college and, at times, involved with the commercial side of it as well. I'll admit my interest in higher-end headphones is more recent. Headphone aficionados seem to naively buy half-baked snake oil electronics just as readily as golded-eared speaker lovers. And when someone comes along and implies an inexpensive product can actually sound decent, many feel obligated to discredit such claims. That's just how the game is usually played. I'm 100% serious. If the E7 is such a piece of shit, which one of you wants to pick it out in a blind test with a "Head Case Blessed" USB Headphone DAC?

I'm not sure what to make of this site, but that aside, I stand by my comment. There's a whole bunch of more expensive crap on the market that's not half as well made, and/or has glaring technical flaws compared to the FiiO E7. Too many live in a freakin' fantasy world with kludged together crap they think is somehow amazing when it's really just half baked junk. Do any of you golden eared guys who think I'm full of shit live in the Northwest? Let's meet up for a beer and have a blind listening test comparing the E7 to some high-end gear? I get to publish the results. Anyone game? I'm 100% serious.