NwAvGuy

What "problem" exactly? Lots of people consider the E7 competition to the uDAC-2 when trying to decide what to buy. The measurements speak for themselves. As does the E7's build quality. I added "in various ways" after "shames more expensive products" as I guess it depends on your priorities. But the E7 is hard to beat for $99.

This whole quest started because I wanted a cheap headphone DAC for a secondary PC. The NuForce flunked so that had me looking at other options. I don't use the pro interfaces for headphone listening... they're in my collection for different reasons. My Benchmark DAC1 Pre works just fine on my main rig and I think qualifies as "known good". But it's not exactly fair to compare the E7 to the Benchmark. Do I have any other USB DACs laying around between the $100 and $1600 price categories? Nope.I test 'em as I get 'em.

Like the NuForce uDAC-2 for one. It also outperforms the AMB Mini3 in some areas as an amp. And the E7's headphone output blows away all of the more expensive USB audio interfaces I've tested (M-Audio, E-Mu, PreSonus, etc.). A more direct comparison for price and function would be something like the Leckerton UHA-4.

For anyone interested, I abused a FiiO portable DAC/Headphone amp on my test bench and just published a rather lengthy review on my blog. The bottom line is it's far better made, and performs way better, than you'd expect from a $99 product. It easily shames a lot of more expensive products. The battery sipping TI chip they chose as the headphone amp is the weak link but is still respectable enough for many applications. But it's clearly not an ideal amp for power hungry high impedance cans. Given the surprisingly good performance of the E5 and E7, I'm curious how the $129 FiiO E9 desktop amp performs? It has the cojones for hungry cans (at least on paper) and the E7 docks on top for optional DAC duty. FiiO E7 USB DAC & Amp Review

Wow! I'm impressed. Do you work for Nelson Pass? I recently read a tip from Ed Simon I plan to try out... cut thin strips of antistatic foam from sheets and spray glue them in rows to notebook divider tab pages. You can put a dozen or so rows on a sheet, each row can hold dozens of TO92 devices, and there's room in between to write whatever on the divider sheet. The devices slip into the foam parallel to the page. Then you can supposedly put 1000+ parts in a single 3 ring binder with the applicable P/N's and measurements in pencil.

Thanks! Now about all these FETs that need sorting....

The discount might be worthwhile as I have a multi-panel order coming up. Is it only good on a single panel? I'm not exactly a new customer but it's been a while and I could probably *appear* to be one...

I've tested the FiiO E5, and amazingly, it measures impressively well for $20 and the size of a book of matches. If you just need more output, or a lower impedance source, (i.e. your notbook's headphone jack otherwise sounds good) it works well and takes up almost no space. I also am in the process of writing up my FiiO E7 DAC review. The build quality is downright Apple-like and it uses a Wolfson DAC and Analog Devices op amp. The measurements were very impressive. It probably outperforms a lot of "boutique" USB DACs--it certainly blows away the NuForce uDAC-2. I think it's a great choice for use with a laptop but it is another box to carry around. But then so is the Babyface. A lot of the high cost of the Babyface is for recording, USB 2.0 R&D, the low latency drivers, extensive I/O, and the software/firmware bundle--non of which are needed for listening to headphones on a laptop. The headphone output of the FiiO E7 outperforms every pro-sound interface's headphone jack I've ever measured and it wouldn't surprise me if it trounces the Babyface. The pro products are designed for recording first and the headphone jack is secondary. There are also lots of complaints about the necessary proprietary RME drivers in their forums. The FiiO E7 is driver free and just works. I've been measuring PC, laptops and Mac headphone jacks and hope to summarize my findings in a future article. The short answer is the measurements vary widely even from one generation to the next of the same product. So just because one generation of Macbook Pro had an awesome headphone output doesn't mean the previous or next one will. As others have said, the headphones make a huge difference. Balanced armature IEM's are usually very efficient so power isn't a problem but they don't like higher output impedances which many laptops have. And really power hungry high impedance full size cans need more output than a lot of portable amps/DACs can manage. The E7 review should be up in a few days.

Generally the more boxes involved (different PC hardware, operating systems, drivers, "bridges", DACs, etc.) the less likely it will all play nice together at all sample rates, bit depths, etc. While products like the Halide Bridge might work magic in one set up, in another it might amount to overpriced snake oil and offer zero benefit over the much cheaper V-Link. I personally think most are generally better off with as much of a "one box" solution as possible. That way one designer had control over much more of the data/clock/signal path and if say J.A. at Stereophile verifies it all works right, it probably will also work right for whoever buys it. The same can't be said of mixing and matching digital hardware. Even in the pro-sound world there are frequent compatibility issues. And few have the ability to run tests that properly show jitter problems, etc. Excluding a few "roll your own" custom FPGA solutions, I can almost count the Class 1 and Class 2 USB Audio 24/96 "chip" solutions on one hand including a few Taiwan manufactures with little convincing public data available for their parts. Most of the better known products are all using variations of the same few chips and some are even using the exact same code (i.e. from Centrance). The implementation certainly matters, but each chip ultimately can only do so much. That's a long way of saying some of the 24/96 USB products might be more alike than many realize. Hopefully there will be more and better parts on the market soon. Right now the pickings are rather slim. But I would still put more faith in a decent USB DAC that's known to work well. I think S/PDIF's days are numbered along with optical disc transports.

Yeah, something weird is going on either with his PC, or with the DacMagic in those tests. I agree a poorly designed PLL could do that. It's like it's using two clocks and has to drop samples periodically when the relative sync error becomes too great to correct? A PLL, of course, is supposed to prevent such things not cause them. I'm working on a blog article about Async USB, vs ASRC (Async Sample Rate Conversion) vs the more typical adaptive USB + PLL techniques. There's been quite a bit already written, but it's rather scattered and much of it biased around how a particular manufacture does it. And some of it is just plain wrong. The world is clearly moving away from CD's so but there's still, by comparison, a lack of good information about what matters most when trying to play content off a PC, storage appliance, streamed from the cloud, etc.

The new Sennheiser's arrived a while ago, are broken in, and have indeed "recalibrated" some of my impressions and provided a new reference. Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions and help. I've substantially altered the DT770 review after living with them for a longer period of time and taking into account the new reference. Several of the comments made by others in this thread make more sense now. I also should known better than to publish a subjective review before living with the product for at least a few weeks. I'll be reviewing the new Sennheiser's as well, but I'm not going to make the same mistake. I plan to live with them for a while before I publish anything. My strongest initial impression is the Sennheiser's have the least fatiguing sound of any headphone I own--they're even better than my Etymotics in that regard.

I think many companies choose such names as publicity stunts hoping for free marketing. For a small company, sometimes any publicity is good publicity. Would engadget even have written it up if it had a boring name? And if they have the balls to name their company Schiit, some will believe they must be really confident in their product. There's an old Saturday Night Live skit around a Smucker's Jam ad slogan "With a name like Smucker’s, it has to be good!" SNL, just like this thread, came up with all sorts of variations including "With a name like Painful Rectal Itch..." My first reaction to the product is a low volume chassis like that probably costs a lot more than all of the electronics combined. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's indicative of the intended customer's priorities. And Schiit wisely chose not to put the company name on the front or top panels of the product.

Just a footnote to this thread... If this guy's measurements are to be trusted, the Halide Bridge does offer measurably better performance over the direct USB connection using the Cambridge DacMagic: Halide Bridge Tested on DacMagic His results, however, could be specific only to that DAC. I suspect there are plenty of other DACs that wouldn't have the jitter problems in the first place.

No worries... Until this thread, I thought the HD580/590/595/600 were all in roughly the same league. So I started out curious about the DT880's but learned my HD590's are a Sennheiser bastard child and the HD600/650 are not what I thought they were. That changed everything. So, my ignorance aside, this has all been seriously helpful. I still plan on listening to the DT770's and Denon's for when I need closed cans depending on the music. I've had the Denon's for many years and they've had lots of use. If I like the HD600's they'll get lots of use too. If not, I'll either keep them for reference cans, or sell 'em. No worries either way.

Ok... HD650/600 good, HD590 bad.... HD600 close to HD650... Done, sold, credit card number entered... HD600's on the way... Thanks guys. I'll let you know if they reset my world. I've also updated the DT770 review in a few areas based on the, um, education I've been getting here. And I'll revise it again after I live with the HD600's for a while. But I don't want Tyll's job.

I never said the DT880 has more overall bass, just that it has an upper bass peak. As for facts, talk to Tyll if this isn't factual enough (it was probably done on his watch): DT880 vs DT770 Freq Resp The DT770 has way more low bass below 100 hz--so I can't agree with your "barely extends below 100Hz" comment. And the lower DT770's bass peak is at a head rattling 35hz while the DT880's broad mid-bass rise peaks at 250hz. The upper DT770 bass peak is at 100 hz. By 200 hz it's gone. The graph agrees with my ears comparing the DT770 to my Etymotics or the Denon D2000's. And, for the official record, I've hardly spent any time at Jude's little fiefdom since I signed up here.

The 600's are cheaper used as well. Completed sales on eBay for 600's are $140 - $225. For the 650's they're $250 - $330. Given they're newer and retail for $100 more it's not surprising. I don't know why the 650's clamp harder, but some said Sennheiser did it on purpose to improve the seal and driver position. I wonder if it's at least partly from comparing well used 600's (that have probably lost some headband tension) to fairly new 650's? I've seen the complaint lots of places besides head-fi. Check the second review on Headroom here for example: http://www.headphone.com/product_review.php?icn=0020080650&rating=4 I guess you can stretch out either one as long as you avoid cracking the headband.

Thanks again all for the comments. I'm going to give up on the DT880's. Many have said they have a significant mid-bass emphasis (which consider "warm" in a good way) and the same less than accurate highs as my DT770's. From what I can figure out, the DT770's are generally more accurate above 100 hz than the 880's. So the 880's wouldn't get me much worthwhile. While I might like the more forgiving sound and slightly enhanced bass of the HD650's, many have said they clamp harder than the 600's and are not as comfortable. And others, like Tyll, say they're very close in sound quality. So given the big price difference, the 600's seem like the better choice.

According to the specs the balanced output impedance depends on the internal jumper settings. But it can be as low as 43 ohms. That's not super low, but it also shouldn't cause a huge interaction with 300 ohm cans. I do, however, have to wonder if some or all of the difference people report using the balanced line outs is really the higher impedance? The Benchmark headphone jacks are 0.1 ohms. It might be fun to play around with depending on the cost of a sacrificial set of cables (OEM or after market). I may also build up a DIY balanced amp one of these days. There are several tempting designs floating around and I have a few ideas for improvements. So I take it you'd buy the $200 HD600's rather than the $450 HD650's in a heartbeat? (Yeah,I know you probably get lots of things for free, dealer cost, employee pricing, etc, but some of us don't those perks anymore).

Thanks Beefy. That helps. I've heard the heavier cable on the 650's is a mixed bag. I've also heard using the stout balanced line outputs of the Benchmark DAC1 to directly drive HD 580/600/650's in a balanced configuration yields amazing results. Not sure if that's myth or fact but I might be experimenting with some dual XLR cables if I get the 600's or 650's to see for myself.

Thanks. I'm curious if you (or others here) notice much difference in long term comfort between the Stax and HD650's?

This is getting more interesting. I appreciate all the comments as I respect the opinions here way more overall than some of the wild stuff on other headphone forums. Although I have seen some rational discussions on Gearslutz from guys who currently own both the 600 and 650 so are not especially biased towards either one. They claim the 600's are more accurate for mixing work, but the 650's are better for enjoying music. @deepak in the "revealing" thread I mentioned I'm tempted by the Stax SR-307/323 combo but the pair is spendy at $1200+. I've also had my eyes open for a good used Stax deal. And yeah, I've seen pics of cracked 600/650 headbands. I have to wonder if that's really carbon fiber? @Tyll if Sennheiser is playing mix-and-match at the factory that might explain some of the "they sound the same" and "they sound way different" comments on the 600 vs 650. It's also fucked up for a company like Sennheiser to do that with $600 flagship headphones. I can get B-stock 600's with a warranty from a legit dealer for around $200. The best price I can find on legit 650's is more than double that at $450.

I have seen, and briefly listened to, the 600's but it's been a while. They have more metal than the almost entirely plastic 590's and I remember they felt much more substantial. From what I know, the 600's are 580 drivers in an upgraded design. And the 650's are the 600 design with supposedly improved drivers. But I didn't know my 590's are apparently a bastard child in Sennheiser's audiophile reference line. Trying to figure out the real differences between the 600 and 650 from reading stuff online is tough. Most seem to think the 650's are warmer, more laid back, more forgiving, more "tube like", have more bass, etc. Some even say the 600's are closer to the 800's than they are the 650's.

I just checked, and at 9 ounces, I guess you're right. All that metal must have just seemed heavier than my mostly plastic 590's. To come back to my original post in this thread, how do the DT 880's stack up? How would you guys compare them to the HD600/650? And between the HD600 and 650 I've heard the 650s have more low frequency extension, a bigger sound stage and are a bit more laid back through the midrange and highs (i.e. more forgiving of poor source material). Is that true? Are the 650's worth $100+ more?

I guess there's at least some consistency. The new HD598 from I've read, is nearly identical, save for the pimped out color treatment, to the HD595. I don't like the physical design of the 555/595. And, despite massive complaints about cracked headbands, Sennheiser apparently couldn't be bothered to fix that as the 558/598 reportedly use the same sketchy plastics and construction. But gee, they did spend money updating the 598 color scheme to match "Euro sport sedan interiors". I picked up a 595 when they came out and was so put off by Sennheiser going backward in the name of fashion I never even listened to them. A lot of headphones in the $100 - $500 range seem to have fatal (or near fatal) flaws for me. Some are just plain uncomfortable (Grado/Alessandro/Sony/Etc). Others, like the ATH-AD700's, fall off my head. And a lot sound worse than what I already have. Comparatively, I'm willing to live with laid back midrange. Perhaps I need to spend more time with some HD 600/650's? At least they're not so much form over function like the current 5xx series but they're still a lot heavier and clamp harder than my HD 590's.