[Cowards at Head-Fi!]

Thanks hirsch. I remember hearing about that, but I suspect there's something more to their relationship possibly financially, product perks of some sort or they are just really good friends. Or some combo of things.

No nothing under the table except maybe that I've given Jude a module upgrade at one point. The reson I have the money is that I ran all the revinues through my books. I collected all the vendor table reciepts and I was given the cash from the meet. I then did all the acounting to summary and presented the summary to Jude with a willingness for all proceeds to go to Head-Fi. He couldn't take the raffle money, so he got some $4400 in clean money. And here I sit on the rest. I have been trying to organize a hobbyist assn. the details of which I won't go into at the moment, but some here were participating. Jude has been very uncomfortable with some of those participants and has some good reason to feel uncomfortable given the negatives expressed here. It turns out to be somewhat of a deal killer.

I like Jude a lot and have been talking with him this morning at length, and communicating with him by email. I think we have made gains in understanding each others motives, and I know that we both very much want a thriving hobby. I remain hopeful that something can be worked out.

As to why do we need Head-Fi: because it has great power to influence and make colaboration between the entire community possible. This is due to Jude's work over he past five years in developing an excellent community forum. Again do not take for granted what he has accomplished there, it deserves strong recognition.

You all know and have at times complianed that HeadCase is a bitchfest, and has limited attraction to members at large. It was founded out of frustration and not with an ultimate goal of a unified community of headphone enthusiasts. While it might be a legitimate reaction to the things you have been feeling at Head-Fi, HeadCase, in my view, is mostly just a symptomatic angry responce to a lack of representative governance in the hobby, but it is not, nor was it designed to be, AFAIK, a constructive reaction to the problem. It's more of a pressure release. I don't have a problem with that because it just seems a natural response to some peoples feelings, but Jude doesn't quite view it that way.

In the end, as I recall the "Billy the Pussy" misadventure, I tend to think this place is fundimentally divisive. I too have fallen into that with Billy. And I think it therefor poses a destructive threat to the community. However, I'm not angy with you guys because I understand, and in some ways, share your frustrations.

[Cowards at Head-Fi!]

I would caution you all to not take for granted how much Jude as done for the hobby as you talk about his failings. We all have failings---and we are all amazingly beautiful.

Any hobbyist Assn. formed would be best served by a symbiotic relationship with Head-Fi. Jude has done a good job of providing a forum for this communities dialog, it is not perfect, but it is far from fatally flawed. And it is far from fatally flawed because Jude and the moderators there have moderated it into a great place.

[My New portable Amp has arrived!!]

Hi Ethan, glad your digging it. Sorry it took so long to make it over to you, but seems like it was worth the wait.

I traded Ethan the system for some SILTECH interconnects. The cables are dedicated to our Wadia-Orpheus unbalanced connection. It's a pretty big price to pay for a pair of interconnects...but it was worth it!

Shilling? Maybe. Intentionally designed to annoy? Yup. Geez, mellow out! I thought this place was free for all.

[Anyone going to HE2006?]

Well, I am going. We bought a new van, and it's loaded with gear. I start driving Monday AM.

[New HeadAmp Modules (for GS-1 and GS-X) Beta Test Program Announcement]

Nice to see you in a post, Justin. Congets on the new amp design, I look forward to hearing it at a meet somewhere along the line. If you don't mind me asking a question: What are the power supply rail voltages you are running?

[USA, the next nazi germany.]

Recently Bush gave a commencement address where he caustioned the student not to become so enamoured of technology that they forget their humanity. "WHAT!", I said to my self. The guy who uses million dollar missiles to blow up pick-up trucks in the desert, and who brings all the technological might of the CIA to listen to peoples phone calls is going to caution us about letting technology get to our head. Un-fucking-believable!

[The Emmeline II B-52]

Ray paid for his table. I have the check.

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

Since when did 'they' start telling 'you' what to do?

Yeah, well... If I want them to do the work and take ownership of the jobs, I also can't violate their space and pace.

Oh by the way, it looks like the convertable isn't quite up to date any more...

Now that I can help you with. I think we have made some Max modules for you with long pins for you. I'll get ahold of Jamey and make sure they get off to you soon.

(Yes, sufffffer all you poor bastards out there! You're going to regret the day you didn't become a HeadRoom fanboy early on. Your fine fingered friend TheSloth gets automatic new module shipments from us....no charge!)

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

I did ask a while back if I could pay with a bank transfe from an overseas account but I got a reply with "no" I think.

You'll have to email [email protected] with that one.

Isn't it about time we saw all those new modules?

You know, tht's just what I was asking this morning. It looks like all the amps are shipping with new modules now. They told me that they want us to "officially" announce at the National Meet.

[Tyll , do you think the total bithead 2006 ..]

you in a rush for "most honoruable and honest vendor of the year" or what ?

No. I'm in a rush to make your wallet wail in agony.

(I just had to say something boorish before you got the wrong idea.)

[Tyll , do you think the total bithead 2006 ..]

Well, it's true that it's the cheap products that are hard to build. So, many compromises! But it also means that that is where there is the most room to improve. In this case, it's really that Analog Devices has done a bang-up job with their new part. Joe W. our engineer has been talking to the guy that designed the 8397 and has sent a couple of prototype designs off to him to play with. I think they've been talking about trying to get AD to build a chip with a single part (instead of dual) so he can use a single 8397 as a rail splitter.

Anyway, we didn't really do all that much except incorporate a new part into an existing plastic enclosure. The real work was done by AD---we just made that work available to headphone users as cheap as we could.

[Tyll , do you think the total bithead 2006 ..]

Man! Somebody slow down that edit time out.

I'd like to add a couple of thoughts.

how can it be anytime there's a new version the changes are so substantial ?

I don't really think that I've allways said improvements are "substantial". But I wouldn't be doing my job if we worked hard only to get modest gains. I think we got a substantial gain in this case, so that's what I said. These things are hard to nail down; if I said we got a 18.6% improvement in sound quality, you could rightly say, "What the hell are you talking about?!" So, I said substantial because it felt like more than a modest improvement, but less than a dramatic improvement.

Sonically, this latest generation amp is a very significant step up from my now-previous-generation Total AirHead

The only sad faces should be on those with original Total Bitheads, but then they should have had a good several years of sound and should be glad to be able to make a meaningful improvement in their portable sound with the new Total Bithead.

Here's quotes from Jude and Old Pa who use words like "significant" and "meaningful improvement" when comparing the old to new. Sounds right in line with what I'm saying. But, hey, YMMV. Time marches on; better parts become available.

[Tyll , do you think the total bithead 2006 ..]

The new 8397 is just quite good. I don't really know what else to tell you. I would have said it was a modest improvement if I felt it was, but it seems pretty obviously better to my ears. The old AirHead used a descrete output stage that was pretty old school; it had good bass control but lacked finesse. The new AirHead with 8397 is substantially more articulate and clearer sounding.

[Tyll , do you think the total bithead 2006 ..]

Yeah, I think it's a substantially better amp.

[Tyll , do you think the total bithead 2006 ..]

The new Air/BitHead uses that 8397 chip as its output amp, that's the one that all the DIYers are happy over these days---it does sound pretty good. The DAC chip is the 2902 USB DAC, it's the chip that is in just about all the USB amp devices around. Competitors? Well, I haven't heard the Meier Portacorda MKIII, but that would be the competitor. I don't know of any other inexpensive, plastic cased, USB capable amps.

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

Regarding crossfeed, if you do it with microcontrollers, will that not limit the crossfeed to digital inputs only?

No. The Micro controller is in there just to do all the switching logic. Basically, you use the microcontroller to interpret front panel switch movement and then set various relays in the box to accomplish what the user wants. This also allows you to use simple momentary switches on the front panel and the audio doesn't have to be routed to near the panels every time you need to switch something. The micro controller also runs the display; it's basically the brains for the box. The software and hardware catagory for this type of in-box control is called "embeded systems". This is a whole area of expertise that we are currently working on accumulating in house. Again, not rocket science, but a lot of work.

What? An honest salesman who speaks the truth???

Seriously we need a couple more like tyll.

<HeadCase branded communication style>Fuck you very much, Kevin. You'll make my head swell.</HeadCase branded communication style>

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

Funny, another one of my questions for the panel of people who aren't you inquired whether anyone was planning to make class D headphone amps.

May be more trouble than it's worth, but there are possibilities. If you could really get the hang of it you might be able to make battery conserving portable amps.

Sorry to be boring, but just because one can make a product doesn't mean one should. I honestly can't really see the need for a HeadRoom branded speaker amplifier in the desktop enclosure...to me HeadRoom is a hard-core headphone amplifier company, and that's what I and I guess many of their customers like about them.

Saddly, though, I can't get HeadRoom to the size I want ($50 million annual gross sales, currently just under 1/10th that) and do it without getting my hands on a bigger market. We are and allways will be about headphones, but we are also about having your own intimate listening place, a refuge for the pleasures of your music, a haven of harmony, a get-away. And if your going to solve the problem of turning your destop into this sanctuary of auditory pleasure, you have to integrate the whole enchillada. If I just did headphones and someone else just did "desktop audio" the gear would compete for the desktop. The whole reason for the desktop line, in the long run, is to create a market area called the high-end audio desktop.

I think only in the last few years some serious competition has developed for absolute sound quality in the amplifier market, and it's important to be continually striving to improve the module and main board designs, as well as continued work on crossfeed which although great could be even better. I believe you only have 20 or so employees, some of whom will have nothing to do with designing the amps themselves. That doesn't leave very many man-hours to spread around, and my assumption is that the more products there are, the less thought can possibly go into each one.

You not only need to keep improving the performance of the product, but you also have to continue to improve the feature set. Other things to add to the list would be: remote control; the ability to answer the phone (and hear it ring) without taking your headphones off; DSP features (Dolby Headphone, digital HeadRoom HRTF); internal rechargeable batteries (for portable products); etc. For us just to get "lock lights" for the DACs we have to be able to incorporate microcontrollers (lightweight microprocessors). Additionally, serving our core market means making tube amps; so we need to go there.

So, yeah, It's a big problem having enough resources to keep improving old products and developing new ones. But we can't leave doors open to other to come and compete in markets we want. If we do nothing to gain control of the audiophile desktop, and someone else comes in and integrates the solution first we're in trouble. Being first has big benefits. Remember, driving headp[hones isn't really all that hard. Look at PS audio, a very nice product right of the bat. Your right we have to keep improving, but the scope of the problem is wider than you may have imagined.

Stuff I'd like to see instead: I'd also like to see stepped attenuators with more than 24 positions on them. I also think that the Desktop Portable needs a 21st century power solution. The red brick goes back to day 1 of HeadRoom doesn't it?

That's one of the things we are working on and the real answer is a completely new product witrh a microconroller and a rechargeable lithium polymer batter inside.

Regarding that absolute SQ, it seems that some of your design options are limited by your modules.

Yup. in more ways than one. This latest release of modules wil be the last in that form. Not only is space a limitation, but if we put microcontrollers in the box we will be able to completely switch out the crossfeed electronics so that with the crossfeed off we can get rid of the input buffers and crossfeed summers. The reason we have had such a hard time competing on straight sound quality is because with the crossfeed off you are still listening to twice the active stages that you would do in a non-crossfeed amp.

Micro or Desktop module in the Micro? How about both, with a little switch on the front to switch between the two.

Actually I think the real solution there would be a unit much like your convertable where you can pop off a rubber plug in the top of the unit and replace a socketed module.

I'm also curious about your response to the amps that now employ a 3 channel circuit topology. I don't really understand enough about amplifier design to understand whether the HeadRoom amps achieve the same result through a different means,

It's our belief that if you do your audio ground correctly you gain very little with an active ground channel.

how about a top of the line single ended amp with 3 PSU's and 3 electronics channels? For your absolute top of the line, your Balanced Max, you have the excellent design of 4 power supplies for 4 modules, each one responsible for one channel. Except what happens when you put in a DAC? I don't know exactly how your impliment it, PSU wise, but it's running off the same supplies somewhere down the line. You have ample room for it in the case, so how about 5 PSU's if the DAC is included. (Or even 6 PSU's, with one for each DAC channel. Or to be totally crazy, as it's balanced, 8 PSU's!) Add $? to the price of the DAC upgrade to include the extra PSU('s) and you have a pretty state of the art Amp/DAC combo.

The problem is ROI (return on investment) The market just isn't big enough for those kinds of things to be strongly worth the effort. While the "hard core" audiophile is the center of who we are, we have to be able to reach out to broader audiences. I believe our mission is to bring the benefits of audiophile sensabilities to out to a broader world. While headphone audiophiles is who were are, we wish to serve people who love music and can appreciate good sound, and who can afford premium products.

Finally, something that's actually practical, and on topic: On your Desktop Amp order page, you state the importance of the Desktop Power Supply, and the current copy is very confusing...

Good comments, we're working on it. I can't tell you how hard it is to do all the things mentioned above. One of the most difficult things to accept for the people at HeadRoom is the need to implement 60-80% solutions and then move on to the next thing. It's truly impossible to be who you want to be fast. Patience and the willingness to stare at a huge mountain and still take one step at a time is key.

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

Shit! Great question, I almost forgot about the speakers thing. First, these are the most kick ass desktop speakers you could possibly imagine. They're not really desktop speakers, but they're small enough and sound UNBELIEVABLE! We have thought about a Desktop Power Amp. It's definately on the list of things to do.... or I should say have to do. We are exploring ideas, however, that make it a potentially long and difficult discussion to get to the finished product. I can't say what that is other than it would cause the amp not to be in the Desktop enclosure at all. We are considering class "D" amplification and have one of the class "D" chip developement kits in house and are playing around with it. Joe is driving the Mission speakers in his office and the crappy little developement kit sounds surprisingly good.

We have already evaluated a number of self powered speakers and will be adding that category of product to our web site at some point in the not too distant future. The Blue Sky Media Desk for example sounds bitchen.

FYI the panel at the National Meet will be headphone designers only, so I won't be on it.

[Mnaufacturer Forum?]

Tyll, if you're interested in virtual communities beyond niche areas like this, I can point you at a REALLY interesting place...

PLease do! PM me if you'd like, or just shout it out.

[Mnaufacturer Forum?]

I have never tried in anyway to promote my products here.

Well, you're a bigger man than I.

Seriously though, I suppose I was more talking about headphone and amp makers. If this were a cable forum, I think you're participation would feel a little different. I can imagine that on a cable forum if you saw a discussion that was doling out a bunch of bad information you would want to correct it BOTH because you disliked ignorance and thought the community would be healthier if it got good information, and because you knew that an educated consumer would be more likely to understand the subtleties of a high performance product such as Siltech cables.

I may also be being a bit too hard on myself, I really am fascinated by the idea of virtual community building and as I really think about it, I'm not sure how much I'm thinking about HeadRoom as I lobby for the community growth. I think it's a terrifically interesting problem (how to build an on-line community) and I am frustrated sometimes that my manufacturer status prevents me from participating as much as I'd like.

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

Are you going to be replacing the modules in the amps that were just reviewed in Stereophile and enjoythemusic.com and sending them for re-evaluation while it's still fresh, or are you waiting a while for that?

I will, in fact; I let Wes Phillips keep the DeskTop he reviewed so that we could send him another and do a side by side. Other publications we're just going to move on to lobbying for other product reviews.

And, YES!, I like your avatar very much. I hope I get the chance to view it in person. I didn't tell you, but I spent some time surfing the web the other day for pix of mahogany model "D"s. There is certainly a sturdy look to the beasts, and boy I couldn't believe how ornate some of the 1800s instruments were.

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

it wasn't just your comment, it was the several concerned PMs that i received and posts by regular members and moderators that caused the thread to be moved and the forum to be made private again.

What a sweet bunch of guys! Thank you all for your caring.

it was also suggested, in the moderator board, that this thread be moved or made private in order to protect information that you had given.

I've often thought that the moderator board on Head-Fi might be improved in it's ability to function as government if it were open to all for viewing. But I've also always thought that the mods were well intentioned and really weren't hiding anything.

i decided to err on the side of caution,...you have to admit, though, your post was rather serious looking, what with the bold type and all.

I'm sorry. I didn't control my post very well. Thank you for reacting and trying to help me out.

[Mnaufacturer Forum?]

I have never stated that anything made by HeadRoom was superior to another manufacturer's product that I had never actually heard. I have never stated that HeadRoom products are better than the competition unless I'm in a position to make that judgement with my own ears, and tend to chime in only when I think that a HeadRoom product that is in line with the others being discussed has been unfairly overlooked. That to me is just restoring the balance...

All of which are why I like having you for a fan. I don't need people idolizing me, I want enthusiast fans who truely enjoy our product to have the opportunity to talk about the values the recieve with HeadRoom products. Saddly, however, many people are not as civilized as we might hope, and those folks will spoil the party for the rest of us.

I see a long hard slog. I see that slog continuing on Head-Fi. I think it may be a bit of a "grass is greener" fantasy to think human nature will be substantively different here than there. I think building a headphone enthusiast community is worth doing and putting a lot of work into. Why? Because that average consumer is getting ripped off, and the sacred art of music is worth better treatment than that. I think Head-Fi has NEVER found it's purpose. That purpose is to make broad expert opinion on headphones widely available in a clear manner. I've told Jude any number of times about ideas I've had that should work well with the tools at his disposal to make it easier to access excellent opinions and it hasn't happened yet. No fucking surprise, why should he really put his nose to the grindstone to work on improving Head-Fi when there's nothing in it but hard work, no money, and various pissed off factions of complaint.

I see this board as a symptom of the larger issue that Head-Fi isn't well governed....or well enough governed. I don't really blame it on Jude, as he was just doing something very nice by providing the board and bandwidth, and I don't blame it on the mods because there is only so much they can do. But if a Headphone Community board is to live on healthy and growing to the extent possible into the future someone is going to have to make a serious job of it, and Jude has (probably wisely, as one business to run is plenty) not taken on that task. I'll add that that task has significant risk and a lot of work related to it.

[Mnaufacturer Forum?]

So, now I do have rules? What are they exactly?

I'd like to make a few comments:

One of the mechanisms I saw happen when we had our own forum on Head-Fi is that when people liked our stuff they would tell us in our forum, but when they we're mad they would talk about it in open forums. So there was a bias towards the negative in the open forums. Once we shut down our forum this slowly swung in the other direction and now I think comments about HeadRoom are more even handed overall.

You will notice that there are a number of HeadRoom fans---in fact fans of all stripes---that basically talk for manufacturers in the open forums. I will say without guile that I am glad for my relationship with TheSloth, for example, and his willingness to chime in for us is very helpfull. I have never asked him to comment, and I have no expectations of him other than to be truthful to himself. But looked at from the most cynical viewpoint he could be considered a shill. In the end, any long term manufacturer will have a set of fans that speak up for their favorite manufacturers. My point here is that want it or not, prohibit it or not, this place, and others, will be a mouthpiece for biased fans. And that's essentially what it's there for.

I think I can and do self regulate fairly well, and I try to toe the line when it comes to self promotion. But make no mistake, even when I am being self effacing I am promoting HeadRoom. I wouldn't do this if I didn't think it did HeadRoom some good. I'll add that I also see community health as good for HeadRoom so many times my focus is on the community growth with the assumtion that that would be good for HeadRoom too. What I'm driving at here is that if manufacturers are allowed to post at all in the forums, they will be acting promotionally. The question becomes, what's the harm in just letting them do so freely? It will prevent all the underhanded manipulations if there is simply no need to manipulate.

Let me answer the question above: what's the harm in just letting them do so freely? The answer is: the lost revinue from not charging them to promote. Which brings us back to: what the hell are your trying to do here. You want an alternative to Head-Fi? OK, but you had better start thinking about your business model and how you're going to pay for bandwidth. It may not be an issue now, but it will become one if you compete successfully with Head-Fi. If you replicate Head-Fi's success, won't you simply be replicating its problems. Already this thread is showing you that rules will occur; mods will have a job to do; fur will fly. Personally, I would recommend a closed forum for the hard-cores and find ways to work symbiotically with Head-Fi. Maybe make it so that you have to have 500 posts on Head-Fi befor you can become a member here. That way you could tie your growth to Head-Fi growth (now roughly the 7000th most visited site on the internet). Maybe even find ways to kiss and make up and promote this site tastefully on Head-Fi.

All this nasty feeling without a counterbalancing effort to fix the problems is simply distructive in the long run. You may claim that competition is good, but I will counter that deregulation in many industries has done more harm than good for the consumer. Going into head-to-head competition with Head-Fi is probably a bad idea; finding a differentiating position is better; being totally different and finding ways to to symbiotically relate is likely best.

Just to throw in a completly diffewrent twist how about: if you are a MOT (member of trade) you can post anywhere, but it will cost you $5 every time you post and you have to be labled in your avatar as MOT. That's every time, not just when doing a promotional post. That way members will know how sincere the MOT is by looking at what they're willing to pay for.

[6moons review - Headroom Maxxed out Desktop]

OK I'm being an ass. I was just seeing if I could raise some hackles. I wasn't pissed at all, just joking around, don't change the board's status for me. If it wasn't OK for the info to leak out I wouldn't have said it. A perfect example of the fact that lack of civility just for fun really doesn't work very well in the long run.

I have to say that I am concerned about this board creating divisiveness. I don't think it's a bad idea to have a board for the hard core, but I don't particularly like the feeling that the community is at risk of disolution to some extent. Did anyone try to resolve the problems with Head-Fi? I've said it before: Head-Fi needs some type of governing body that is able to legitimately deal with conflict.