luvdunhill

My point isn't to use multiple cables, I agree that your finding are probable. I'm suggesting using multiple systems, as this is from a scientific standpoint where you'll probably see tractable differences. I'm citing technical reasons for why you have an endemic bias in your setup. Since other systems may be more prone to RLC differences that cables present to the system (a statement you agreed with) then you cannot claim that there is no difference until you've tried your experiment on their particular system. finally we've gotten to the good ole fashion way to handle these debates. Just disproving of what's taught in grade school. Like I said, there are methods, like the ones outlined above, that are used to deal with real world covariance and variable dependency. I'm not disproving the scientific theory, just saying that there are ways to handle more complex tests that are equally valid. You said that single variable tests are the only valid tests, of course this is false.

that's fair. I just want to point out that some systems are more prone to difference in cables at a technical level. Just because you tried this test in a single system, doesn't mean *you* can reproduce it in other systems. This is what you're implying.

excellent. I thought you were arguing that there cannot be differences, so I was giving examples where there is a demonstrable difference. As for your statement about "scientifically valid test relies on testing one variable", for six grade science projects yes you're right, real world tests aren't this easy. Why do things like chi squared tests exists? Why have multivariate techniques like support vector machines (SVM) and their kernal based derivatives. Will the debate between the Gaussians and the Frequentitsts ever be solved? no. For example, your single variable is silver versus copper. In fact, that's not a single variable. There are a number of different variables being changed there. So, you say only one thing can be changed, but scientifically this is impossible. This is why I find your line of logic specious.

ok, so your saying that cables can sound different.

So, is it possible that there can be differences in cables, due to how the cable can interact with a properly functioning system. This isn't a matter or properly constructed cables, but extends to commercial cables that may have difference resistance, inductance, and capacitance values. Can this RLC circuit interact with the system and can produce different sounding cables?

I mean, you'll always win the argument on your terms. Because in your test scenario, "significantly changes function of the test system" is not allowed. If this is the case, how can there possibly be an audible difference? If there is a change, you'll just redefine "significant" until there is no latitude in choosing test subjects.

ok, well perhaps I did misunderstand you. Sorry, this was anything but clear in the previous posts. I have in fact done it with commercial cables (Audience low impedance and high impedance phono cables to be exact and another third party, MIT perhaps? In fact, capacitance wasn't even the varied quantity in this case) with a group of people and a frequency response analyzer. Obviously the DBT was performed before the frequency response was plotted. I think your line of reasoning is fairly specious. You cannot invalidate the test if the DUT causes a change in the system. That's in fact what we're trying to prove.

It's not a matter of shame, it's a matter of having a blank four deck 42-step attenuator arriving soon Seems like an excellent use of the added steps to get more attenuation. Yeah, I remember listening to his beta22 at full bore with his Pearl into the Fostex*. I guess I could do the math and get the exact output, but I know my CD player is 1.99vrms balanced and I wanted a bit more gain for sure. (*) Yeah, that was the "fated" meet where the hubris of the TRS jack hit in a big way.

I remember wanting more gain with steve's beta22, though I'm not sure what gain it was set at. Perhaps it was 5 per board? This was using a 1.99 Vrms source and my Fostex T50. I'm likely going to be using a custom attenuator one way or another, so my plan is to just add more attenuation here. I know he was using the JT, so I figured more gain (7- with another -10dB to -15dB attenuation should do the trick nicely.

what, matching hfe for every transistor to the same value on all four boards isn't unreasonable, is it? By the way, this amp needs some more compensation at gain of 4... at gain of 7 I didn't need any compensation. What gain do other typical four channel amps use, like the dynamight and beta22?

yeah, I wonder why ....

I wonder how far that analogy goes... so DIYHifi is to Twisted Pear Audio as head-case is to -=her=-?

science explains my experience with the phono cable, see the link posted above.

yeah, and the "well I haven't heard it, so you have to believe it" camp isn't just as annoying and lacking the same credibility Until Reks DBT a phono cable before a SUT, I guess we'll never know.

My test was not like this, it used commercial cables. However, to disprove Reks statement "large capacitance differences, for instance, though never massively preferred, from a statistical standpoint" of course I'd choose a corner case, I'd be stupid not to, it's much easier that way.

anyways, my point was that I disagreed with the first statement quoted above. Still do. Large capacitance differences in my experience in a specific instance were "massively preferred". While the story will be claimed to be anecdotal at best, the cables in question were indeed commercial cables and the system wasn't rigged together to prove a point. A simple frequency plot proved the 7-0 or so bias and was attributed very clearly to capacitance differences.

no shit. Therefore, there are cables that can change the sound of a system. Phono cables are a very good example of this. Again, I could take ordinary components and build a system that would demonstrate this. In fact, I have done this very thing. Have you ever DBT a phono cable?

how large of capacitance difference do I get? Also, if the amplifier blows up with one of the two cables, then can we assume there is a difference (assuming the cable works, and the only difference is capacitance)? Also, read the link above. The math is simple and shows why there will definitely be a frequency response change in an analog system with difference cable capacitances.

in other words, yes I do. If I can pick the capacitance difference, that's trivial.

sure. I get to choose the setup and you can choose what you mean by "large differences in capacitance". My key ingredients are a turntable, two cartridges, a step-up transformer, and a 70dB+ gain phono stage with MM switch. In this case, the cable is from the tonearm to either the step-up then to the MM option on the preamp, or the the MC input of the phono stage directly. Basic circuit would be similar to the ones in the below link, which also give an explanation on why capacitance is important and what it does to the resulting loading of the cartridge. Of course, since you specified "large" I would exaggerate things using the combination off the above equipment and probably roll of around 10kHz at a 3dB point. It would be very obvious. Link: Hagerman Technology LLC: Cartridge Loading Second setup would involve a pair of electrostatic headphones and the cable test would be in the headphone cable position. Key ingredient is a shitty as hell amplifier. Ray's A10 would probably work quite nicely.

yup, I could guarantee it.

I dunno about this. I can give at least two examples where differences in capacitance are always massively preferred.

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This link belongs in this thread... AudiogoN Forums: New ZYX Carts?

Twisted Pear Audio widgets could be a dangerous first buy then, you may get stuck in a cycle. I second the notion to just go with Thrice's beauty.