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The good news is that the new production 845's aren't that bad and much, much cheaper.

Couldn't have said it better myself. They are simply creating the ultimate euphonic tube sound and we say it sounds bad because that's not how a good tubeamp sounds.

It's funny. I've noticed over the years (from reading personal websites, Audiogon, AudioAsylum, DIYAudio, etc.) that many people move from the tubey warm side over to the clean control side during the course of their audio journey, but I extremely rarely see anyone go the other way. :D

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The headphone output on the Cary 300SEI is shit for low-impedance loads: they just added a resistor from the main analog output stage to lower noise, but in the process upped the output impedance on the headphone output. High output impedance + low-impedance load = YUCK! Bloated bass plus overly tubey sound.

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It's funny. I've noticed over the years (from reading personal websites, Audiogon, AudioAsylum, DIYAudio, etc.) that many people move from the tubey warm side over to the clean control side during the course of their audio journey, but I extremely rarely see anyone go the other way. :D

Most people with a clue about how all of this stuff works move closer to the truth but there are always exceptions. Some members of HF spring to mind that think the sound is produced by pixie dust.

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fucking bullshit, and you know it. regardless of how great Wavelength or Fucknut labs are, or Penisgoeswhere? industries amps are, there is no way in hell that hearing them is suddenly going to make the Cary 300SEI sound bad.

Sorry, but it does. I've heard the 300SEI and it sounds like poo, very syrupy, mushy, slow, overly warm, and lacking in resolution. If that's the kind of tube sound someone likes, then fine, he can say that Carys sound good. Me? I've grown to hate that sound, so Carys and amps that sound like'em sound bad to me.

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Most people with a clue about how all of this stuff works move closer to the truth ...
I disagree (and I'm not talking about head-fi here) -- there tends to be two schools of thought -- accuracy vs. euphony. If all people wanted was accuracy, why would there constantly be a small portion of the population that would disrecommend buying "accurate" studio monitors for home use rather than home speakers? One of the problems is, no-one can agree on what constitutes the "absolute sound" when it comes to euphony, because there are many approaches to this, and for example with speakers, there are many "house sounds".

For example, what is "dry"? Shouldn't that mean accurate? And yet, usually people hate "dry" delivery.

One of the things I like so much about my Singlepower amp is that it's so clean and dry in its delivery, but every once in a while, I crave that tube-y-ness (the Wheatfield, for example, is one of the nicest amps I've heard that I would describe as "tubey").

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I disagree (and I'm not talking about head-fi here) -- there tends to be two schools of thought -- accuracy vs. euphony. If all people wanted was accuracy, why would there constantly be a small portion of the population that would disrecommend buying "accurate" studio monitors for home use rather than home speakers? One of the problems is, no-one can agree on what constitutes the "absolute sound" when it comes to euphony, because there are many approaches to this, and for example with speakers, there are many "house sounds".

For example, what is "dry"? Shouldn't that mean accurate? And yet, usually people hate "dry" delivery.

One of the things I like so much about my Singlepower amp is that it's so clean and dry in its delivery, but every once in a while, I crave that tube-y-ness (the Wheatfield, for example, is one of the nicest amps I've heard that I would describe as "tubey").

You do have a point here but it isn't as cut and dry as people like. All those reviews I've read over the years stating that some component doesn't have any sound and is completely neutral are so full of crap because all gear will have some sound of its own. This is why I rank the He90 as euphonic and the SR-007 as neutral because the He90 leaves a huge mark on the music but the SR-007 doesn't. It's not completely neutral but they sure as hell are accurate.

I'm well aware that most audiophools still cling on to the old standards where accurate meant dry, bright and lifeless sound and euphonic was a warm, syrupy mess. These terms are good as they are easy to understand but very far from the truth and very outdated. You can a very musical sound that isn't euphonic and dry,

Monitors are very colored devices as they are all a bit dry but they are supposed to be like that. A lot of people use the BBC monitors and PMC speakers in their homes and love them to bits as they don't conform to the stereotypical monitor sound.

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Ask anyone who uses SET or actually knows proper P-P / OTL circuits. Their view of Cary and their 300B designs is somewhat along the same lines of our view of the Raptor's sound. :D

I disagree (and I'm not talking about head-fi here) -- there tends to be two schools of thought -- accuracy vs. euphony. If all people wanted was accuracy, why would there constantly be a small portion of the population that would disrecommend buying "accurate" studio monitors for home use rather than home speakers? One of the problems is, no-one can agree on what constitutes the "absolute sound" when it comes to euphony, because there are many approaches to this, and for example with speakers, there are many "house sounds".

For example, what is "dry"? Shouldn't that mean accurate? And yet, usually people hate "dry" delivery.

One of the things I like so much about my Singlepower amp is that it's so clean and dry in its delivery, but every once in a while, I crave that tube-y-ness (the Wheatfield, for example, is one of the nicest amps I've heard that I would describe as "tubey").

It's not as clear cut as that in the tube world. I don't think the opposite of tubey mush is accuracy dry. It's more along the lines of euphonious control. I tend to believe the great SET stuff I've heard to be more euphonious than the Cary style of sound.

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My old prototype tube amp was not very accurate sounding, but was dry as hell. I've heard a few cheap chinese amps that range from dry to lush and most are not what I would call accurate. My current amp has a very pleasing euphonic sound, but is not lacking in accuracy at all. Most singlepower amps are a little tubey (excepting the over the top balanced creations), but are not masking detail as far as I've heard.

Neutrality and euphony are not mutually exclusive. I would say that my rig is pretty neutral relative to others I've heard, with a slight hump in the mids. It is also very rich sounding. Accoustic instruments and vocals sound lush... As they damn well should! They sound lush live for chrissake! :)

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Once upon a time, I thought the Senn 580 was a totally amazing sounding headphone. Then I heard an RS-1, and later on a Stax setup, and came to realize that the 580 isn't really all that great. Once upon a time I though B&W's were great speakers, then I heard Living Voice Avatars and Quad ESL's, and came to see that B&W's aren't all they're cracked up to be. Same thing with amps, I used to think Carys were really good, then I heard the stuff from Wavelength, Coincident, and most recently, Artemis Labs, and now I know where the Cary stands in the big picture. Every time I hear something better, the scale gets recalibrated and everything below the new best gets moved down. 5-6 years and half a dozen amps ago and the 300SEI might've been a 9.5/10, now it's been dropped to maybe a 4/10. I've been extremely fortunate to have heard all the great gear I have in the last 5 years or so.

Speaking of which, I'm bugging one of the local dealers to bring in a DP-2, Class A push-pull 2A3's with transformer phase splitting. :D

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Neutrality and euphony are not mutually exclusive.
I'm not sure I completely agree with this. To me, euphony means colored, which is mutually exclusive with neutrality. Now, if you meant that neutrality and pleasantness or sweetness (which is the technical definition of euphony) are not mutually exclusive, I have to admit that I'd not be able to argue with you. But when we talk about euphonic colorations introduced by our gear (and I completely agree with the precept that all gear colors the sound somewhat), that's what I usually interpret us to be talking about when we talk about euphony.

Oh, and WRT "dry" -- I come from the studio world, where "wet" means lots of reverb, and "dry" means no reverb, so when I say that particular equipment is "dry", it usually means I hear very little smearing of the signal. Not at all the way most people understand me, unfortunately.

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Once upon a time, I thought the Senn 580 was a totally amazing sounding headphone. Then I heard an RS-1, and later on a Stax setup, and came to realize that the 580 isn't really all that great. Once upon a time I though B&W's were great speakers, then I heard Living Voice Avatars and Quad ESL's, and came to see that B&W's aren't all they're cracked up to be. Same thing with amps, I used to think Carys were really good, then I heard the stuff from Wavelength, Coincident, and most recently, Artemis Labs, and now I know where the Cary stands in the big picture. Every time I hear something better, the scale gets recalibrated and everything below the new best gets moved down. 5-6 years and half a dozen amps ago and the 300SEI might've been a 9.5/10, now it's been dropped to maybe a 4/10. I've been extremely fortunate to have heard all the great gear I have in the last 5 years or so.

Speaking of which, I'm bugging one of the local dealers to bring in a DP-2, Class A push-pull 2A3's with transformer phase splitting. :D

This is also a good summary of my journey. I was awestruck by big balanced SS amps and toob amps with a lot of toobs but as I heard more and I defined what I wanted it was large SET's driving huge capacitors all transformer coupled. A local DIY scene is a god send when you live in a remote place like I do. This does have a few bad side effects as I'm arguing with myself whether I should buy an Aristaeus and I just can't get over how much I have to spend and change to make it usable and I have to build a new PSU for it... :o I need help...

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Think of all the Head-Fi people who we dislike because they only accept the sound of the their systems and won't be open towards other people's gear (even if they hear it, they try to find fault and dismiss them as soon as possible). The speaker world is the same. General advice is not to be one of them.

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Now, if you meant that neutrality and pleasantness or sweetness (which is the technical definition of euphony) are not mutually exclusive, I have to admit that I'd not be able to argue with you.

Oh, and WRT "dry" -- I come from the studio world, where "wet" means lots of reverb, and "dry" means no reverb, so when I say that particular equipment is "dry", it usually means I hear very little smearing of the signal. Not at all the way most people understand me, unfortunately.

Oh snap. Perfect. Your definitions were different from mine, but it turns out I was actually agreeing with you. Cool. :angel:

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Once upon a time, I thought the Senn 580 was a totally amazing sounding headphone. Then I heard an RS-1, and later on a Stax setup, and came to realize that the 580 isn't really all that great. Once upon a time I though B&W's were great speakers, then I heard Living Voice Avatars and Quad ESL's, and came to see that B&W's aren't all they're cracked up to be. Same thing with amps, I used to think Carys were really good, then I heard the stuff from Wavelength, Coincident, and most recently, Artemis Labs, and now I know where the Cary stands in the big picture. Every time I hear something better, the scale gets recalibrated and everything below the new best gets moved down. 5-6 years and half a dozen amps ago and the 300SEI might've been a 9.5/10, now it's been dropped to maybe a 4/10. I've been extremely fortunate to have heard all the great gear I have in the last 5 years or so.

Speaking of which, I'm bugging one of the local dealers to bring in a DP-2, Class A push-pull 2A3's with transformer phase splitting. :D

So the 6N1P is really a tits driver for the 300B? That's two amps I see that are using it that you say are high end.

What makes it better than a 6DJ8 driver? Perhaps it's just that I've read nothing but bad stuff about Russian tubes.

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So the 6N1P is really a tits driver for the 300B? That's two amps I see that are using it that you say are high end.

Nope. In the Artemis SP-1, the 6N1P is the input tube, the EL34 is the driver. In the Wavelength, the input/driver tube is a 6C45P, which is similar to a Western Electric 437A. The Coincident uses a 6EM7 which is a dissimilar dual triode, one section is a low power medium-high gain triode and is used as the input, the other section is similar to a 6BX7 and gets used as the driver for the 300B.

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Nope. In the Artemis SP-1, the 6N1P is the input tube, the EL34 is the driver. In the Wavelength, the input/driver tube is a 6C45P, which is similar to a Western Electric 437A. The Coincident uses a 6EM7 which is a dissimilar dual triode, one section is a low power medium-high gain triode and is used as the input, the other section is similar to a 6BX7 and gets used as the driver for the 300B.

Yep I read the manual after I made my post, and I wasn't able to edit it. Thanks for the clarification.

aerius ygpm on these amps, don't want to further derail

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I equate dry to thin sounding. Which if any of you have listened to Meier's products they all are. I wouldn't say they are accurate at all. It is like you take music and drain all the juicy out of it til it is thin and stale. It is in stark contrast to RSA products which is overly juicy to the point where you can't find the meat/bone (I.e. reality). Obviously accurate sound varies from person to person, but Meier amps and RSA are the polar opposites for me.

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I'm not sure I completely agree with this. To me, euphony means colored, which is mutually exclusive with neutrality. Now, if you meant that neutrality and pleasantness or sweetness (which is the technical definition of euphony) are not mutually exclusive, I have to admit that I'd not be able to argue with you. But when we talk about euphonic colorations introduced by our gear (and I completely agree with the precept that all gear colors the sound somewhat), that's what I usually interpret us to be talking about when we talk about euphony.
I replied to the second part of your post, but missed the first part. I'm going to blame this on the blackberry again. :D

I do mean pleasantness and sweetness when I speak of euphony... when I talk about colorations, I just say colorations and what area of the frequency response they fall in. Like I said, though my rig is fairly neutral, it has some midrange coloration, or at least an accentuation of the midrange. This is the way I like it though, so no big deal. :)

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What you really need is both. :D

Big balanced toob amps with a lot of toobs...

Nahh I've spent plenty of time with the best in this are, CAT, and it isn't for me. I do like push-pull but paralleling large amounts of tubes will bring out a lot of nonlinear nastiness.

I really need to build a small tube amp with usb input for my computer. ;)

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