fordgtlover Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Hi to all I am a regular over at HF and I recogise many of the posters here. I lurk here a bit, but only once previously had the inclination to post. My question relates to burn-in. As stated in the thread title, why does burn-in only ever improve gear? I have posted this over at the other place a few times, but of course it gets ignored. Now I'm not so sure about the whole burn-in thing personally. I've never really had a 'wow' experience. There is teh real chance that I'm just too deaf to hear any difference. I can understand why drivers might need some time to loosen up, but electronics? Anyway.... back to the real issue at hand here... Given the scenario where you unpack a new set of cans and love them at first listen, but after 20, or 100, or however many hours later you think 'Man, this sounds like shit. Fuck burn-in' Why do we never read about this happening? Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Mental acclimatisation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordgtlover Posted May 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 sure seems to be the case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pars Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Burn-in seems to be a case of burning in the ears. That said, my power amp (Odyssey) is said to absolutely require burn-in, even by the manufacturer (Klauss, who is well respected throughout the audio community from what I can tell, unlike others). Of course I bought mine used, so I cannot attest one way or the other. In general, I still feel that claims of many hours of burn-in required are absolute bullshit. Particularly the B-I blogs on HF... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Burn-in for speaker drivers is well-documented. Changes in Thiel-Small parameters can easily be measured. Interesting thing is, while there are changes, they are somewhat proportional. I always burn-in drivers with 24 hours of low-frequency signal and then stick them back in my measuring jig and recalculate TS parameters. After this, there really isn't any measurable difference, and the TS parameters don't change significantly, or at least they change below my measuring capabilities. As for amplifiers and what not, I always "burn-in" new gear, but for me this is more a matter of adjusting operating points. I try and simulate the final operating environment of the amplifier as much as possible (i.e. cased up and on my rack). I feel this is worthwhile, but YMMV. For turntable cartridges, the suspension definitely settles in over time. This is pretty obvious, as you have to fight with tracking weight, and other parameters during this time. Again, pretty measurable changes. But then again, these parameters also change with temperature and humidity. I have to readjust my cartridge every 3 months or so, I've found. Other than that, who knows. I hear things but usually I'm changing more than one thing so it's hard to pin down. I tend to say, why not do it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadden Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Warm up is for real. I hear improvement in sound this way all the time. Burn-in I have no idea, and there is no way of knowing for sure. Anytime someone posts a question regarding burn-in time for a product they just purchased probably just hasn't got around to accepting they made a mistake and don't like it much. Or their ears haven't adjusted yet -- the luckier scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pars Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Warm up is for real. I hear improvement in sound this way all the time. Burn-in I have no idea, and there is no way of knowing for sure. Anytime someone posts a question regarding burn-in time for a product they just purchased probably just hasn't got around to accepting they made a mistake and don't like it much. Or their ears haven't adjusted yet -- the luckier scenario. That I agree with as I hear this all the time. My power amp needs to be on at least an hour (I normally leave it on all the time). If I just fire it up, it does sound harsh for awhile. If it has already been on, it does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 I'm no burn-in expert, but I think it is mentioned when talking about many different things in audio. In my headphone life, I've migrated from one dac to another multiple times. With each migration came both an instant "that sounds a little better", and a more gradual appreciation for subtle differences. I never attributed this to burn-in, but rather an ever-developing ear. I strongly believe that, when fed better sound, the ear can further learn what is bad, good, balanced, unbalanced,etc. Training the ear is one of the reasons I enjoy music so much, as it keeps the hobby fresh and exciting. One thing that backs up my findings is that when I go back to an old source after a long acclimation with the newer source, I can hear a much wider range of differences than when going from the old source to the new one originally. Things that were once extremely subtle are no longer extremely subtle; perhaps just moderately subtle. At the same time, new things are less subtle; such as harshness or graininess of the older source. If you've ever played a musical instrument, it is similar to listening to someone tuning their instrument. An inexperienced player may take a long time tuning it, struggling to hear the difference in the 'beatings' of the pitch variation, whereas a seasoned pro can tune their instrument on the fly; they have learned to recognize the proper pitch of a note. My guess is that many people upgrading equipment have unknowingly trained their ears some, and just assume the gear has changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerius Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 My question relates to burn-in. As stated in the thread title, why does burn-in only ever improve gear? I have posted this over at the other place a few times, but of course it gets ignored. It doesn't. If you go to head-fi and search through the Senn 650 threads from when they were first introduced, you'll see people saying that the damn things started sounding like ass after break-in. For the first few months after the HD650's intro, some people bitched that it sounded broken after being run in for a few dozen hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordgtlover Posted May 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Burn-in for speaker drivers is well-documented. Changes in Thiel-Small parameters can easily be measured. Interesting thing is, while there are changes, they are somewhat proportional. I always burn-in drivers with 24 hours of low-frequency signal and then stick them back in my measuring jig and recalculate TS parameters. After this, there really isn't any measurable difference, and the TS parameters don't change significantly, or at least they change below my measuring capabilities. As for amplifiers and what not, I always "burn-in" new gear, but for me this is more a matter of adjusting operating points. I try and simulate the final operating environment of the amplifier as much as possible (i.e. cased up and on my rack). I feel this is worthwhile, but YMMV. For turntable cartridges, the suspension definitely settles in over time. This is pretty obvious, as you have to fight with tracking weight, and other parameters during this time. Again, pretty measurable changes. But then again, these parameters also change with temperature and humidity. I have to readjust my cartridge every 3 months or so, I've found. Other than that, who knows. I hear things but usually I'm changing more than one thing so it's hard to pin down. I tend to say, why not do it... Yeah, I can understand mechanical componenets requiring burn-in or a settling period, but this shit about 100 or 700 hours - wow. Warm up is for real. I hear improvement in sound this way all the time. Burn-in I have no idea, and there is no way of knowing for sure. Anytime someone posts a question regarding burn-in time for a product they just purchased probably just hasn't got around to accepting they made a mistake and don't like it much. Or their ears haven't adjusted yet -- the luckier scenario. Yes - when I read the threads on the other forum about 'wait 200 hours and then these cans that you hate will transform' or whatever that crap is. I can't help but wonder whether it's people justtrying to convince themselves or they're too dumb to recognise the stupidity of their own statements. ' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordgtlover Posted May 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 It doesn't. If you go to head-fi and search through the Senn 650 threads from when they were first introduced, you'll see people saying that the damn things started sounding like ass after break-in. For the first few months after the HD650's intro, some people bitched that it sounded broken after being run in for a few dozen hours. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll go back and have a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Yes - when I read the threads on the other forum about 'wait 200 hours and then these cans that you hate will transform' or whatever that crap is. I can't help but wonder whether it's people justtrying to convince themselves or they're too dumb to recognise the stupidity of their own statements. pretty much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 It doesn't.x2. When you get to the level of equipment wherein burning really matters, you're also getting into the realm of gear that is not really "better" than other gear, but rather "more to one's liking". This will usually lead to improvements as a result of burn-in on well-designed gear (as they finish settling to how they're supposed to sound), but not necessarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordgtlover Posted May 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 penis. Hmmm... I see, or Vagina. Let me look into that for you madam.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Hmmm... I see, or Vagina. Let me look into that for you madam.... Dont stand too close Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordgtlover Posted May 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Dont stand too close I'll make sure to poke it with a stick first... just to make sure it's dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 penis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordgtlover Posted May 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2008 ^ Well you sir, are a festisio! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted May 4, 2008 Report Share Posted May 4, 2008 it was a peter griffinesque reaction to the whole break-in thingAh. I don't watch enough Family Guy to have gotten that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordgtlover Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 I'm no burn-in expert, but I think it is mentioned when talking about many different things in audio. In my headphone life, I've migrated from one dac to another multiple times. With each migration came both an instant "that sounds a little better", and a more gradual appreciation for subtle differences. I never attributed this to burn-in, but rather an ever-developing ear. I strongly believe that, when fed better sound, the ear can further learn what is bad, good, balanced, unbalanced,etc. Training the ear is one of the reasons I enjoy music so much, as it keeps the hobby fresh and exciting. One thing that backs up my findings is that when I go back to an old source after a long acclimation with the newer source, I can hear a much wider range of differences than when going from the old source to the new one originally. Things that were once extremely subtle are no longer extremely subtle; perhaps just moderately subtle. At the same time, new things are less subtle; such as harshness or graininess of the older source. If you've ever played a musical instrument, it is similar to listening to someone tuning their instrument. An inexperienced player may take a long time tuning it, struggling to hear the difference in the 'beatings' of the pitch variation, whereas a seasoned pro can tune their instrument on the fly; they have learned to recognize the proper pitch of a note. My guess is that many people upgrading equipment have unknowingly trained their ears some, and just assume the gear has changed. I had never thought of it in these terms; that the listener is increasing their ability to discerene the higher quality by listening to better gear. Given that the most significant improvements would probably be realised as you come up from the lowest end of the fidelity range, do you think that there is a point where the improvements cease and expectations take over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elnero Posted May 21, 2008 Report Share Posted May 21, 2008 It could also be that the designers are using parts that are already burned in or take burn in into account when designing, thus the piece of gear sounds as it should after it's had a few hours of run-in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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