Dreadhead Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 What do you consider phase accurate? Linear phase? Minimum phase? Low group delay? Some form of apodizing filter? The phase in the orginal digital signal is preserved which is linear in the audio world I believe. I see that there are many that talk about minimum phase etc for resampling which makes a lot of sense in those uses but once it makes it to the DAC I think it should put everything out with the phase it gets in: straightline phase and frequency response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 I spoke to your friends at Vintage King today and will likely be getting some demos of the DAD and Weiss gear myself. Well let me know how it goes. I really shouldn't spend the money anyway so maybe I'll just live vicariously through you. I'm glad to hear they have gear to trial the DAD stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 Well, just to keep it interesting, I have another iron in the fire[wire]. http://www.head-case.org/forums/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif' alt=':rolleyes:'> I spoke to the maker of the Amarra music server. They are getting ready to release their hardware and software packages next week, and the hardware model would wrap up everything I am looking for in one slim single-rack-unit device. Their Model 4 is connected to the Mac by FireWire, has 24/192 A/D converters with adjustable gain on the analog input, has 24/192 D/A converters, and integrates with iTunes for all hi-rez input and output. The Amarra software can also be purchased separately, and will support some third party products like Lynx cards, Weiss dacs, and maybe some others. Amarra is working on a deal to be bundled with Weiss hardware products in a special custom configuration. I am going to try to visit Amarra next week, and the guy I spoke to from the company putting it out, Sonic Studio, was really great and happens to live down the street from my house in Mayberry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted March 27, 2009 Report Share Posted March 27, 2009 (edited) Daniel Weiss himself confirmed that the ADC2 FW can serve as a Firewire to AES/EBU interface so that answers my question pretty definitively. Of course, the DAC1 mk2 and ADC2 combination is a massive amount of overkill on what I want to accomplish -- especially on the A/D side -- but it could work with a Mac Mini or Macbook or whatever without a PCIe card being needed. Edited March 27, 2009 by Voltron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanY Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 The phase in the orginal digital signal is preserved which is linear in the audio world I believe. I see that there are many that talk about minimum phase etc for resampling which makes a lot of sense in those uses but once it makes it to the DAC I think it should put everything out with the phase it gets in: straightline phase and frequency response. Alas, there's no free lunch. Preserving phase ends up introducing pre-ringing, so each type is a trade-off. If you'd like some easy reading on the trade-off, these two references are accessible: http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/documents/en/Ultra_High_Performance_DAC_whitepaper.pdf http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf The Ayre approach is basically the same as filter 2 in the Lesso and Magrath paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Alas, there's no free lunch. Preserving phase ends up introducing pre-ringing, so each type is a trade-off. If you'd like some easy reading on the trade-off, these two references are accessible: http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/documents/en/Ultra_High_Performance_DAC_whitepaper.pdf http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_MP_White_Paper.pdf The Ayre approach is basically the same as filter 2 in the Lesso and Magrath paper. Actually it produces preringing when sampling to digital etc or downsampling from higher bitrates but if my aim is to reproduce exactly what's on the disk then it's right to preserve the phase in the digital filter. IF you put a digital filter on that reduces the preringing that may or may not be in the digital signal (like ayre does) then you are most definitely not reproducing the analog signal captured by the digital signal (perfect or not). If you need more convincing there are some great fft programs you can mess around with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Actually it produces preringing when sampling to digital etc or downsampling from higher bitrates but if my aim is to reproduce exactly what's on the disk then it's right to preserve the phase in the digital filter. IF you put a digital filter on that reduces the preringing that may or may not be in the digital signal (like ayre does) then you are most definitely not reproducing the analog signal captured by the digital signal (perfect or not). If you need more convincing there are some great fft programs you can mess around with. I should be clear that the during A/D the pre-ringing only occurs after you de-alias the samples too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Well, just to keep it interesting, I have another iron in the fire[wire]. http://www.head-case.org/forums/uploads/emoticons/default_rolleyes.gif' alt=':rolleyes:'> I spoke to the maker of the Amarra music server. They are getting ready to release their hardware and software packages next week, and the hardware model would wrap up everything I am looking for in one slim single-rack-unit device. Their Model 4 is connected to the Mac by FireWire, has 24/192 A/D converters with adjustable gain on the analog input, has 24/192 D/A converters, and integrates with iTunes for all hi-rez input and output. The Amarra software can also be purchased separately, and will support some third party products like Lynx cards, Weiss dacs, and maybe some others. Amarra is working on a deal to be bundled with Weiss hardware products in a special custom configuration. I am going to try to visit Amarra next week, and the guy I spoke to from the company putting it out, Sonic Studio, was really great and happens to live down the street from my house in Mayberry. Cool well enjoy. I have looked into is a bit before but I got put off but I can't rember why. I think it may have been the MAC only thing but there was something in their DSP that made me uncomfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamwhisper Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 The person I bought my Bel Canto DAC3 from said he was selling it to get a Bryston BDA-1 ...interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamwhisper Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 not really. Thanks, Captain Subjective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monkey Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Thanks, Captain Subjective I would think that he's at least a Major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aardvark baguette Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 wow he found the thumbs-down symbol and everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Yeah, but at least "Captain Subjective" was new and funny -- made me smirk, anyway. So he gets a brownie point for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monkey Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 So has anyone heard the Bryston DAC yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted April 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I'm going to try and score one off the 'Gon to try. As much as I like the Duet, I'm interested to taste some other digital flavors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted April 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Did come across this head-to-head of the Bryston against the Benchmark over on the AVGuide forums. They preferred the DAC1 over USB, and the Bryston over optical. The search for right DAC for my setup has led in many directions. But as I researched and compiled trusted opinions, the decision came to be between the Bryston BDA-1 and the Benchmark DAC1 USB. The reviews for both have ranked them among the best buys for your money in both build and sonic quality, yet to my knowledge, there are no direct comparisons between the two available. And, regrettably most retailers do not sell both, let alone have demos of both for comparison. Fortunately for me I was able to come across one dealer that not only does, but one that was also able to set up an A/B listening session. For that, I have to take a quick minute to thank the people at Westlake Pro Audio (Westlake Professional Audio Sales) for allowing me 2 hours use of one of their professional mixing studios filled with some of the finest audio gear as well as one DAC1 USB and one BDA-1. I brought with me my MacBook Pro with 25 records of various music stored as AIFF 44.1K 16bit files, a mini-to-toslink fiber optic cable, and a USB 2.0 cable. All Midi Controls were set using that timesaving application, CA-Sample Rate, provided by the people at Computer Audiophile (Computer Audiophile | High-End Audiophile Music Servers) with everything set at 44.1K and 16bit, except for the when using the Benchmark, which forces 24bit. My salesman joined me as well as the Manager of the studio who was also interested hearing what the two had to offer. As we began A/B’ing between the two from song to song, it was instantly apparent how much louder the Bryston was then the Benchmark. According to the decibel meter on the mixing board, it was approximately 3db louder! To my knowledge the Benchmark does has level adjustments on the back that could easily fix that, if its volume is an issue to you. Utilizing the USB connections of both units, we all appreciated the stronger treble and tonal balance that the Benchmark had over the Bryston. Voices were slightly fuller, symbols were crisper with a longer finish, and keyboards and synthesizers had more impact and vigor. On the flipside, we also noticed that the bass was stronger and more controlled with the Bryston. The difference was equally as dramatic as the Benchmark’s strengths in higher frequencies. In terms of sound stage, the Bryston was slightly wider and a tad more room filling. The Benchmark tended to be more forward and central. Separation and definition were about the same on both units with some songs from Thom Yorke’s The Eraser Rmxs album sounding better on the Benchmark while others from Animal Collective’s Merriweather Post Pavilion sounding better on the Bryston. Unlike the Benchmark, the Bryston allows for the control over the up-sampling feature. Throughout our tests, we almost always preferred the up-sampling to be on. The difference between the function being on and off was miniscule, and I liked the fact that we had the ability to turn it off or on with the push of a button. After and hour and a half, both the manager and I preferred the Benchmark simply for its clarity and balance, with the salesman preferring the Bryston for its “pleasing scoop” that he felt evened out the balance with the midrange at higher volumes. With my mind made and as we were packing everything back up, I remembered the mini-to-toslink cable that I had brought. Knowing that the Bryston functions differently via USB then it does via its other inputs, we decided to switch the cables and do another quick test to see it there is a noticeable difference. And, yes, there was a noticeable difference. The Benchmark sounded very similar to an almost unnoticeable degree, but the Bryston opened up revealing much of the lost highs that it lacked via USB. It was not 100% at the level of the Benchmark, but it was 95-97% there, creating a very natural and full sound. The Bryston’s bass also improved in tightness, which could be a result of the pairing with better higher frequency resolution or that over the optical pathway, the Bryston’s processing was better as a whole. Playing the Isley Brothers song, “People of Today”, the BDA-1 provided a much more musical experience then the Benchmark did, even evoking some head bobbing. That is to say that the DAC1 USB sounded fantastic as well, it is just that the combination of the Bryston’s newfound clarity meshed with its already large sound stage, made for a more pleasing experience. The cable switch also improved on Bryston’s imaging, making for much sharper and more defined reproductions. This was a noticeable difference over the Benchmark. Via the BDA-1, on Henry Fiol’s Fe, Esperanza y Caridad, the background vocals in the song ”Ven y Baila mi Son” were distinct and clearly separated in space from your left to slightly right of center, and when played through the DAC1 USB, the same separate voices merged into a group, and the space narrowed to a range slightly to left and right of center. We played a few other songs with similar results. On Heat Miser’s Mic City Sons, “Rest My Head Against the Wall”, the Benchmark had a very pleasant range with all of the instruments sounding as unenthusiastically energetic as I assume Elliot Smith had wanted them to be. But when played through the Bryston, each of those instruments took its place within the soundstage, filling the room, and essentially making the whole experience more lifelike. Given this large gain in performance, I had to reconsider my decision made 30 minutes earlier. If I had only the option of USB, I would have gone with the Benchmark without much of a thought. It has a wonderful, clear, and balanced sound, that is sharp without being harsh or hard to listen to. It, in fact, was a pleasure to listen to. It is a unit that is worth every cent. But, since the use of an optical cable is an option for me, I ultimately chose the Bryston. The gains by using an optical cable were, in our opinion’s, game changing. Its soundstage was wide and spacious, its ability for separation and definition was amazing, its’ control and authority was impressive, and its’ sound, for lack of a better phrase, makes you want to dance to the music; all making the Bryston BDA-1 an easy choice as my DAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I'm going to try and score one off the 'Gon to try. As much as I like the Duet, I'm interested to taste some other digital flavors. I look forward to your impressions. I think I'm going to skip this one and go straight to the Prism or Weiss. I just found out that the Prism list price is nearly 2 grand less in the UK. Hopefully I can sort something out with a dealer here or I'll have to do an import but that's a lot of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Still unrelated to the original topic of this thread, but I am going to demo the Amarra system today at Sonic Studio's office. Really nice of them to do this, and I will be hearing to Model 4 unit that combines all of my requirements for hi-rez ad/da, firewire connectivity, and improved music server integrated with iTunes. Should be interesting and I am going to work on getting a unit to CJ09 as well (either Sonic will participate, or they will send a demo with me, or I will own one by then ). Unless I am completely sold on the Amarra immediately, I will also try to procure some demo gear from Vintage King so we can compare Weiss or DAD options... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Still unrelated to the original topic of this thread, but I am going to demo the Amarra system today at Sonic Studio's office. Really nice of them to do this, and I will be hearing to Model 4 unit that combines all of my requirements for hi-rez ad/da, firewire connectivity, and improved music server integrated with iTunes. Should be interesting and I am going to work on getting a unit to CJ09 as well (either Sonic will participate, or they will send a demo with me, or I will own one by then ). Unless I am completely sold on the Amarra immediately, I will also try to procure some demo gear from Vintage King so we can compare Weiss or DAD options... I hope you enjoy it What's the price? My Vintage King trial of the Weiss DAC2 and Mytek arrives tomorrow. Mytek has an 8 in 8 out AD/DA that might fit your bill and there is even a DSD option for a little extra money. Edited April 28, 2009 by Dreadhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) Now I remember why I wasn't so hot on Sonic Studio: "Based on our experience, we sometimes find that textbook math does not mean the best sounding math" they also go on to talk about their math having a noise floor below -110 db which is fine but in a plaback system there is no way in hell you're hearing all the way down there (unless you're blessed with music that is 40 db below FS). Edited April 28, 2009 by Dreadhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Bistromathics is tastier and cryomathics sounds better. Duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Now I remember why I wasn't so hot on Sonic Studio: ... they also go on to talk about their math having a noise floor below -110 db which is fine but in a plaback system there is no way in hell you're hearing all the way down there (unless you're blessed with music that is 40 db below FS).I don't have a problem with that -- why would you have a problem with that? Don't you believe in the "complete overkill" school of engineering? Even given your stance of "you can't hear it", if it's not there to not here, all the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltron Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I met Jonathan Reichbach at Sonic Studio's office and got a good introduction to the features of the Amarra software and hardware. I cannot give you any more technical data but I can say that I am buying a Mac Mini and will have Amarra and a Model 4 of my own or on loan as of Friday. And either way, Jonathan will make sure I have an Amarra for CanJam. If Dreadhead has a Mytek and/or Weiss unit or if I can get something on demo then we could do some comparing as well. The integration with iTunes is easy and yet impressive. The ease of handling tracks with a variety of sampling rates on the fly and without hiccup is great. The mixing, EQ and other features with and without the Model 4 are going to be fantastic for needle-drops. The additional features are too numerous to list and I don't think I know a tenth of them. Sonic also seems to have lots of plans for unlocking features already in Amarra and adding more. This system is going to be very robust from what I can tell. And the sound is great although I hardly had time or ability to do any real comparison on gear and speakers I am completely unfamiliar with. It will be very easy to compare iTunes to Amarra and Model 4 to any DAC given the ins/outs and ability to switch from Amarra to iTunes by clicking a dialog box. I intend to do some of the comparing next week. Sonic is taking it slow and trying to get everything figured out before they do a real, full-fledged launch. They are a pro dealer, after all, so this retail audiophile stuff is new to them as far as I can tell. Sonic has a number of early adopters who are getting the software to use with Weiss and Alpha DACs and some that are also getting the hardware unit. I cannot speak for the company but my guess is that they are getting some things worked out on the hardware and software ends during a limited launch. Good idea in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 I'm interested in this and the new Ayre QB-9 as a future upgrade. I like my current 840c, but its got that rather cold mid-range and glary treble that makes some shit sound plain harsh, at least on all solid state gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 I don't have a problem with that -- why would you have a problem with that? Don't you believe in the "complete overkill" school of engineering? Even given your stance of "you can't hear it", if it's not there to not here, all the better. I have no problem with them doing it for complete overkill but claiming it's audible is BS which they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.