postjack Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Okay, just kicking around an idea here. Kevin at KAB does a Cardas rewire terminated in a 5 pin DIN phono plate. I emailed Kevin and asked if this was a truly balanced connection for use with a balanced phono stage. His response: "That is the one single advantage of the din connector. carrying a balanced connection from the cartridge to the preamp. it has 5 pins. + - right, + - left, and a sheild. RCA's cannot be used for that, of course your phono stage must be able to accept that kind of connector as well." ...so I could get this done to my TT, and run XLRs to something like the Aqvox Phono 2Ci MKII Balanced Phono Preamp, and then of course the balanced amp, and I'd have myself a fully balanced vinyl rig, correct? I'm sure someone in headphoneland has balanced a vinyl rig, anyone have any recollection? I just figure if I'm going to balance my digital rig I should at least research the idea of doing the same with vinyl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanflyz Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Aren't turntables inherently balanced? I mean the tonearm cables are left +/- and right +/-, and they don't really share a ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Aren't turntables inherently balanced? I mean the tonearm cables are left +/- and right +/-, and they don't really share a ground. That's what I've always been told as well. Can't say I've ever really looked into it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted September 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Aren't turntables inherently balanced? I mean the tonearm cables are left +/- and right +/-, and they don't really share a ground. true. might end up being more trouble then its worth. but they must make balanced phono stages for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philodox Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Turntables usually put out balanced signals, but AFAIK phono stages are usually not balanced. There are certainly balanced phono stage designs out there though. If I ever setup a vinyl rig, I will definately be looking at one. You are right though, this hasn't been talked about much and I can't think of anyone off hand who has a balanced vinyl rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanflyz Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Of course, there are phono stages with balanced outputs, on the top of my head, Hagerman Tech makes one, and so does Aqvox. If all you mean by balanced is that they don't share a common ground, then I think turntables qualify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philodox Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the phono stages with balanced outputs just invert the phase at the end to generate them. I'd do some research to ensure the phono stage is actually balanced before buying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the phono stages with balanced outputs just invert the phase at the end to generate them. I'd do some research to ensure the phono stage is actually balanced before buying. Isn't that what the XR-10B does? It only has single ended inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerius Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 I don't know of anyone with a balanced vinyl rig, but I do know of a balanced phono preamp which you can get someone to build for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philodox Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 boooring.huh?Isn't that what the XR-10B does? It only has single ended inputs.If it only has single ended inputs, you are probably right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philodox Posted September 17, 2007 Report Share Posted September 17, 2007 Oh, lol... research about audio equipment can be fun sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerius Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Since I've now heard a balanced phono stage, I can provide info on this topic. The SE phono was similar to this one but with a WE437A as the 2nd tube and a different transformer, and the balanced phono is pretty much the RTP5A but using 7044's on the linestage section. Both are really good, the SE one will run with any commercial phono stage I've heard including the Artemis and EAR-Yoshino 912, but the balanced one is better. There's more of everything and the music is more real and enjoyable. The gap in performance isn't too hard to notice. But, that was on a Nottingham Dais turntable with the Anna arm and VdH Colibri cartridge, you don't want to know how much that costs. On a more reasonable setup such as the Pro-Ject RPM-10 with a VdH Grasshopper IV cartridge, the differences are hard to pick up, the balanced phono is a tiny bit better but the gap is so small that I had a fair bit of trouble picking it out. The consensus is among the people there that day is that it's better to get a good SE phono than an average balanced one, they're going to cost around the same anyway and the SE one is likely to be less finicky and sound better. It's simpler with less parts, so better parts & design can be used which can usually more than balance out the advantages of a balanced phono, assuming it's not an all-out system. They know their vinyl so I'll take their word for it. Also, holy christ is the Colibri ever good. Even better when you have one of the 1st 10 records to come off the stamping presses to play on the turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shokunin Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I don't know anyone with a true balanced vinyl rig. Boulder makes an excellent balanced phono, but it's major $$$. I'd be less concerned about being 100% balanced and instead focus on sound quality and synergy between table/arm/cartridge/phonostage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Balanced is not the same as having separate +/- on the L & R channels. Balanced at the source level requires 5 connectors at a minimum -- the - on each channel should be carrying the inverted signal of the +, and both should be relative to the single common ground. We in (dynamic) headphoneland get confused because balanced headphones aren't really balanced, they're faux-balanced (balanced up to a point, and then all of a sudden they're not balanced anymore, just like some high-end interconnects *). Then we get told that you really only need 4 connectors to do balanced (which again, is not really balanced, it should be called something else, like dual-single-ended, or dual-monoblock headphone amplification). That said, there should be nothing stopping you from making a truly balanced phono pre out of the DIN connection. That part of the above discussion is correct. I know Juan has a balanced phono pre, but I don't know if it's truly balanced based on the DIN connection. Paging Juan...paging Juan... * Whether or not this has a real benefit or not is outside the scope of this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Dusty Chalk: I consider a truly balanced output to be a floating output without a common ground. I'm not sure what others think, but this is my definition at least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD44hi Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I know Juan has a balanced phono pre, but I don't know if it's truly balanced based on the DIN connection. Paging Juan...paging Juan... Nope, regular unbalanced rca from the wand. The two I have, clearaudio symphono and the simaudio http://www.simaudio.com/moonlp53.htm, both seem to take the same approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 The consensus is among the people there that day is that it's better to get a good SE phono than an average balanced one, they're going to cost around the same anyway and the SE one is likely to be less finicky and sound better. It's simpler with less parts, so better parts & design can be used which can usually more than balance out the advantages of a balanced phono, assuming it's not an all-out system. They know their vinyl so I'll take their word for it. This is the same conclusion I reached after doing further research. Thanks for sharing your experience, it validates my reading of others' opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philodox Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 We in (dynamic) headphoneland get confused because balanced headphones aren't really balanced, they're faux-balanced.I think you're confused here. Headphones and speakers are balanced so long as the ground on the driver is tied to an inverted signal instead of the ground of the amp. I fail to see how this is faux-balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I think you're confused here. Headphones and speakers are balanced so long as the ground on the driver is tied to an inverted signal instead of the ground of the amp. I fail to see how this is faux-balanced.Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Nope. Just because a vendor says it doesn't make it definitive. There is balanced drive and balanced transmission. Balanced transmission is +/-/shield. Balanced drive is push/pull. They're usually used together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I cited that source because I thought they were correct and that they explained it well, not because I thought anyone here would take anyone as an expert in the area (except maybe KG -- feel free to ask him to step in and correct me, I'm not going to bother him). Balanced drive is push/pull. No, push/pull is something else entirely. Push/pull is this -- it's when you amplify the positive side of the swings separately from the negative side of the swings. Balanced amplification is when you amplify the positive to ground signal separately from the negative to ground signal -- which you can also use push/pull to do. That's why it takes twice as much amplification, and why a balanced Beta-22 has twice as many circuit boards as a single-ended one. Your image of balanced transmission also applies to balanced amplification. EDIT: Struck phrase, distracting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philodox Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Nope. huh? Where exactly is your point proven there? I read it quickly, but must have missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 huh? Where exactly is your point proven there? I read it quickly, but must have missed it. It's not, don't worry about it http://www.headphone.com/products/product-resources/balanced-headphones/bal-transmission-vs-fully-bal/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 huh? Where exactly is your point proven there? I read it quickly, but must have missed it.Because your criteria for balanced is only half the story. Yes, tying the negative signal to the other terminal is part of it, but they must both be relative to ground, and since most dynamic driver speakers and headphones don't have a ground, it can't be done. Only electrostatics can be truly balanced. Remember, it's just a potential difference, if you float the ground, then you've lost the stable reference for the common noise on the line. I'm not saying it's bad -- faux-balanced is still an improvement over completely single-ended, but to call it balanced is not entirely correct. I realize I'm being pedantic, but that's not the same as being wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 http://www.headphone.com/products/product-resources/balanced-headphones/bal-transmission-vs-fully-bal/Just because a vendor says it doesn't make it definitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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