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Is the remaster better?


Knuckledragger
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I've been looking for a decent remaster of Dire Straits - Brothers in arms.  Here's four versions of the title track.

 

1985 original:

RgbTm.jpg

 

1996 Mercury remaster:

o4jms.jpg

 

2000 JVC XRCD:

DS2uB.jpg

 

2008 Japanese SHM:

HkZ1z.jpg

 

 

There's also a 2005 20th anniversary SACD and a  2005 DVD-A in 5.1, both of which I lack.

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Yes, they all look pretty good.  I was listening to the Japanese SHM version earlier and it sounded great.  TBH, even the XRCD version is not horrific by today's standards. /damning with faint praise.

 

Looking back in this thread, I see I mentioned 3 releases I never around to analyzing.  After I other work done today, I'm going to see if I can dig them up:

Rolling Stones - Tattoo You (original CD and 2009 UMG remaster)

Stevie Wonder - Talking Book (original CD and 2000 remaster)

Between Interval - Radio Silence (2004 original and 2007 remaster)

 

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Could you please install the DR plugin and calculate the DR values for the tracks on that version? It's not on Pleasurize anymore, but an independent developer

 

 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Dire Straits / Brothers In Arms - 20th Anniversary Edition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR10      -3.70 dB   -15.54 dB      5:11 01-So Far Away
DR8       -4.20 dB   -15.65 dB      8:26 02-Money For Nothing
DR6       -5.27 dB   -14.21 dB      4:13 03-Walk Of Life
DR9       -4.68 dB   -15.86 dB      6:34 04-Your Latest Trick
DR11      -6.11 dB   -19.48 dB      8:31 05-Why Worry?
DR10      -5.42 dB   -18.71 dB      6:57 06-Ride Across The River
DR9       -4.48 dB   -17.25 dB      4:41 07-The Man's Too Strong
DR10      -4.40 dB   -15.91 dB      3:40 08-One World
DR8       -5.43 dB   -17.08 dB      6:58 09-Brothers In Arms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Number of tracks:  9
Official DR value: DR9
================================================================================
 
 
In the early days of SACD the masters really weren't all that great. A DR9 kind of stinks for a band like Dire Straits, though its not too bad to listen to.
 
The later Japanese SHM-SACDs of the Dire Straits catalog measure a lot better and average around DR12 to DR13 which is much more listenable. I don't think they've done an SHM-SACD for BiA yet though...
 
I've got the self-titled Dire Straits SHM-SACD and it sounds wonderful.
 
Edited by TMoney
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Oof.  I just check out the two version of Tattoo You I have.

 

I thought the first was a rip of a 1980s CD, but looking at the waveform I now very much doubt that.  

 

I'm going to call it Unknown Remaster:

Q2Das.jpg

2009 UMG Remaster:

3nERu.jpg

 

The first is passable and the second downright awful.   :kitty:

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I have to versions of Steve Wonder's Talking book.  Again, I thought one of them was a 1980s pressing, but it looks like a 1990s version based on the DR.

 

Unknown CD:

TZ5pZ.jpg

 

2000 Remaster:

zqrOq.jpg

 

 

Both look quite good.  The 2000 version, surprisingly so.  I'm going to have to (gasp) listen to them to determine which one is better.  

 

Also, Superstition is the most badass thing, ever.  That is all. rock.gif

 

 

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Yeah wow, avoid that 2009 remaster.

 

I've heard some of the earlier Stones ABKCO SACDs and I'd say they are "just ok" as well. Probably about DR10 so listenable for sure, but not stunners by any means. I'd guess they might look a smidge better than that top waveform you posted but not much.

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This is the DR log from the XRCD of Brothers in Arms. Not my rip, not even sure this is the real thing...

 

 

foobar2000 1.1.10 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2012-12-18 23:56:23
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Dire Straits / Brothers In Arms (XRCD)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11      -0.18 dB   -12.66 dB      5:14 01-So Far Away
DR10      -0.18 dB   -12.39 dB      8:26 02-Money For Nothing
DR9       -0.18 dB   -11.14 dB      4:12 03-Walk Of Life
DR11      -0.18 dB   -13.62 dB      6:34 04-Your Latest Trick
DR12      -2.22 dB   -17.67 dB      8:31 05-Why Worry
DR10      -0.18 dB   -12.82 dB      6:58 06-Ride Across The River
DR8       -0.18 dB   -12.61 dB      4:41 07-The Man's Too Strong
DR10      -0.18 dB   -11.86 dB      3:41 08-One World
DR10      -0.18 dB   -13.34 dB      6:58 09-Brothers In Arms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Number of tracks:  9
Official DR value: DR10
 
Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   16
Bitrate:           803 kbps
Codec:             ALAC
================================================================================
 
Quite better than the SACD on some tracks, slightly on others. Different master anyway.
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It turns out that two version of the ambient album (Between Interval - Radio Silence) were in fact the same, so there's no point in comparing them. I have the 2007 remaster and it sounds pretty decent, though it's definitely louder than I'd like.

 

I don't have an original version on CD (my 1980s copy is in fact on tape) but here's a 2007 Japanese remaster of Cinderlla's debut album:

 

EUXha.jpg

 

Remarkably good, I'd say.

I'm wading through a bunch of releases. I might have some Smashing Pumpkins later.

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Last night before I went to bed I processed a bunch of remasters.  Spoiler alert: the 2011 remasters of The Smashing Pumpkins are awful.  I'll post them after lunch maybe.  Right now here's a few other things.

 

Tears For Fears - Everybody Wants To Rule The World (1985 Original):

kFkCc.jpg

 

Tears For Fears - Everybody Wants To Rule The World (2010 Japanese SHM)

Ts98G.jpg

 

Grateful Dead - Brown-Eyed Woman E72 2003 Remaster

LZlw8.jpg

 

 

I don't have any other versions of the Dead's Europe '72.  Brown Eyed Woman is a fairly quiet song and that waveform is a little more ...energetic than I'd like.  I have Foobar on my wheezy old Wintel and I might check out that DR plugin Antonio mentioned above.

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The DR plugin is great and I highly recommend it as well.

 

I've found that since I moved to Foobar and the DR-plugin I'm increasingly moving my music with less that DR8 or DR9 to my backup drive to free up space for better sounding albums. Even though they may be albums that I really liked, anything with less than DR8 just dosen't sound that great with my primary rig.

 

With limited listening time why not listen to albums that sound great?

Edited by TMoney
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I processed a bunch of tracks with the DR plugin, and I'm going to post the results along with waveforms.

 

First off the DR for the 2003 Grateful Dead remaster I posted previously:

foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 15:56:39

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 08-Brown-Eyed Woman

Number of samples: 12298020

Duration: 4:39 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:     -0.10 dB   ---     -0.10 dB   

Avg RMS:       -11.47 dB   ---    -12.48 dB   

DR channel:      9.20 dB   ---      9.80 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR9

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           841 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

 

Now let's take a look at The Smashing Volume Levels, shall we?

 

Siva is the opening track from their 1991 debut Gish.

 

Siva1991 original:

hDd5y.jpg

 

 

foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:09:17

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 02-Siva

Number of samples: 11576544

Duration: 4:23 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:      0.00 dB   ---      0.00 dB   

Avg RMS:       -14.05 dB   ---    -13.80 dB   

DR channel:     11.34 dB   ---     11.20 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR11

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           792 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

 

Siva 2011 remaster:

WS0PQ.jpg

 

 

foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:09:41

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 02-Siva

Number of samples: 11454240

Duration: 4:20 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:      0.00 dB   ---      0.00 dB   

Avg RMS:       -10.68 dB   ---    -10.43 dB   

DR channel:      7.81 dB   ---      7.74 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR8

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           911 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

 

 

I did two tracks of Siamese Dream. Initially I picked Disarm, which is a fairly quiet song, so I chose Cherub Rock as well.

 

Disarm 1993 original:

yZpvj.jpg

 

 

foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:11:13

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 06-disarm

Number of samples: 8687700

Duration: 3:17 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:     -0.20 dB   ---     -0.20 dB   

Avg RMS:       -13.44 dB   ---    -13.24 dB   

DR channel:      9.99 dB   ---      9.56 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR10

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           802 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

 

Disarm 2011 remaster:

YVk03.jpg

 

 

foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:11:30

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 06-Disarm

Number of samples: 8684172

Duration: 3:17 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:     -0.07 dB   ---     -0.07 dB   

Avg RMS:       -11.68 dB   ---    -11.38 dB   

DR channel:      8.64 dB   ---      8.33 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR8

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           812 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

 

 

 

Cherub Rock 1993 original:

24uWq.jpg

 
foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:10:13

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 01-cherub rock

Number of samples: 13140624

Duration: 4:58 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:     -0.44 dB   ---     -0.44 dB   

Avg RMS:       -11.52 dB   ---    -11.23 dB   

DR channel:     10.24 dB   ---     10.00 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR10

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           910 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

 

Cherub Rock 2011 remaster:

c0Jev.jpg

 
foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:10:45

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 01-Cherub Rock

Number of samples: 13152972

Duration: 4:58 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:     -0.02 dB   ---      0.00 dB   

Avg RMS:        -9.70 dB   ---     -9.38 dB   

DR channel:      8.62 dB   ---      8.30 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR8

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           972 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

From Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness chose Tonight, Tonight.

 

Tonight, Tonight 1995 original:

5KW9h.jpg

 

 

 

foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:11:56

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 02-Tonight, Tonight

Number of samples: 11232564

Duration: 4:15 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:     -0.41 dB   ---     -0.41 dB   

Avg RMS:       -11.46 dB   ---    -11.86 dB   

DR channel:      8.97 dB   ---      9.07 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR9

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           856 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

 

Tonight, Tonight 2011 remaster:

NCtTU.jpg

 

 

 

 

foobar2000 1.1.13 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1

log date: 2012-12-19 16:12:10

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics for: 02-Tonight, Tonight

Number of samples: 11229036

Duration: 4:15 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

                 Left              Right

 

Peak Value:     -1.71 dB   ---     -1.78 dB   

Avg RMS:       -11.46 dB   ---    -11.89 dB   

DR channel:      7.58 dB   ---      7.94 dB   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Official DR Value: DR8

 

Samplerate:        44100 Hz

Channels:          2

Bits per sample:   16

Bitrate:           872 kbps

Codec:             FLAC

================================================================================

*phew* That was quite a process. In light of the above, maybe this thread should be renamed The Remaster Isn't Better.

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knuck's How well do your numbers compare with the info in the  

dr_logo.png

 

Its searchable by Artist and album (top right text fields)

 

So Dire Straits

 

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Dire+Straits&search_album=

 

Dire Straits, Brothers in Arms

 

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Dire+Straits&search_album=Brothers+in+Arms

 

 

Smashing Pumpkins, 

 

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Smashing+Pumpkins&search_album=

 

 

Smashing Pumpkins, Gish

 

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Smashing+Pumpkins&search_album=Gish

 

Rolling Stones, Tattoo You

 

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Rolling+Stones&search_album=Tattoo+You

 

The Good (1986)

 

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/details.php?id=29609

 

 

Label: Rolling Stones Records (CBS) Label Code:   Catalog Number: CK 40502 Bar Code: 0 7464-40502-2 Country: USA Comment: Digital Master by Greg Calbi at Sterling Sound

Analyzed folder: I:\RStonesTattooYouOrigRSRecords\
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR14 over -15.56 dB Track01.wav
DR13 -1.36 dB -17.37 dB Track02.wav
DR14 -1.44 dB -18.40 dB Track03.wav
DR13 -0.16 dB -15.95 dB Track04.wav
DR11 -1.78 dB -15.29 dB Track05.wav
DR12 -1.81 dB -15.40 dB Track06.wav
DR15 -0.78 dB -19.45 dB Track07.wav
DR14 -0.00 dB -17.16 dB Track08.wav
DR14 -2.62 dB -19.97 dB Track09.wav
DR14 over -16.52 dB Track10.wav
DR12 -0.18 dB -16.20 dB Track11.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 11
Official DR value: DR13

 

 

 

The Bad (2009)

 

 

Artist: The Rolling Stones Album: Tattoo You Year: 2009 DR Album:

8

DR Track min:

7

DR Track max:

10

DR Tracks:

7
7
8
7
8
9
8
8
10
10
8

(might not be in original order) Label: UMG Label Code:   Catalog Number: 0602527015699 Bar Code: 602527015699 Country: Europe Comment: Digitally Remastered. Source: lossless

etc

Edited by Grahame
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Great post!

 

It's kind of a bummer to see that even the mid-1990s Pumpkin original CDs are pretty compressed. DRs of 9 and 10 aren't bad to listen to, but imagine how it would sound if it was in the 13-14 range.

Don't confuse compression for brickwall compression.  Especially with rock and roll.  I mean, Vapour Trails was horrible.  HORRIBLE.  There was brickwall compression before it even reached final mixdown (yo dawg...).  They just didn't know what they were doing.  Snakes and Arrows was much better, despite its poor showing in the DR database.  At least it was listenable.  If you want a textbook example of why brickwall compression is bad, and regular compression is not as bad, listen to those two albums critically back-to-back.

 

I should mention that it depends entirely on the style of music.  Mark Knopfler/Dire Straits is sweet sweet music, and shouldn't be compressed all to hell, even non-brickwall.  One would want those dynamics to sing through.

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Point taken, but I just don't prefer the sound of compression even with modern rock.

 

Its funny going to live concerts and hearing what the songs sound like with fuller dynamics. Its especially noticeable with drums. They are so easily tamed by excessive dynamic compression. Live drums sounds great, even over the PA.

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