My experiences with W5000 and HD650

[humanflyz]

As much as I like my K1000 setup, I can't lie down with them, so I started looking for "normal" headphones. I really had no specific trait of what to look for, since sonically I was pretty satisfied with the K1000. I basically just bought whatever I felt like, and it's more exciting this way. I bought the W5000s first because I've been curious about the Audio-Technica high-end. Later I bought the HD650s, since I've never had them, and I feel like I should give them a chance because they are one of, if not the, most popular audiophile cans still in production. Since I'm stuck at my parents' house over the winter break, I had the chance to go back and forth and do some careful listening.

Here's what my setup looks in my parents' house:

Trends UD-10 Digital USB Transport-->Lavry DA10-->HD650/W5000, all music is lossless

It's pretty easy to hear the differences between the two, but both are flawed. The W5000s are definitely brighter than the HD650s, but this doesn't always translate into a good thing. For example, on "Entres Dos Aguas (Rumba)" by Paco de Lucia, the brighter W5000s rendered the guitar-playing more involving and more in-your-face, thus making it a much livelier listen than the HD650. This track also showed me that the W5000s definitely have more PRaT than the HD650s, so that the W5000s demand more of your attention upon listening while the HD650s are more polite by comparison.

The HD650s sound more distant by comparison, but this gives it a perception of greater soundstage size-wise. But the W5000s have more precise imaging, possibly because its more forward character makes it easier to perceive where each instrument/personnel is in the song.

But I think the W5000 fails in some key areas that ultimately makes it unacceptable to me. First, it has some weird thing going on the midrange, especially the upper-midrange, because female vocals sound out of wack on them. The female vocalist is brought more forward into the soundstage, but in the process, there is this "echo" effect in their singing, like someone added a reverb effect. This is made especially apparent on "John Saw That Number" by Neko Case. The song itself already has some reverb effect, but the W5000 made it that much more, to the point where it becomes hollow and plastic-ky almost. I'm pretty sure this is not an isolated instance, as I heard the same "echo" effect on other songs featuring female vocalists like "Lived in Bars" by Cat Power, although to a lesser extent. Male voices are not as affected by this, although they still do not have the body of the HD650 male vocals.

Second, there's something wrong with how the W5000s render the timbre of acoustic instruments. To me, the W5000s get the leading notes right, but the decay goes away too fast. I tried listening to some folk music with acoustic instruments, and the songs just don't sound right to my ears. They also don't do piano right, because there's no weight behind the pounding of the keys, so pianos, especially pounding piano notes, sound shrill. However, the W5000s do pretty well with electrical instruments. Electric guitar solos are a lot more fun to listen to on the W5000 than on the HD650s.

I'm quite conflicted about the W5000s, because I can see areas where they have a clear advantage over the HD650s: they have more PRaT, they are funner to listen to for pop music, their imaging is more precise. However, the trade-offs are unacceptable to me: they color the upper-midrange in a strange way that make female vocals sound hollow and echo-y, not enough body, and they can't do timbre on acoustic instruments correctly. I would probably recommend the W5000s to people who listen to contemporary pop/electric music, where timbre don't matter as much and the fun-factor is high.

The HD650s aren't that great either IMO. I've heard them before on some pretty high-end systems before (Dynamights, SDS-XLR, Zana Deux, with digital front-ends like the EMM Labs stuff). My biggest gripe with the HD650s is not its dark tonality, but rather, its lack of speed. I get fatigued after listening to the HD650s extensively. I know, strange, but that's because I'm always waiting for the music, which seems just to arrive one step too late. After a while, this strains my mind and make me tired. The soundstage, although big, is not as precise. There's a hole in the middle of the soundstage. The bass can become over-powering at times. Overall, my biggest gripe is that the HD650s sound labored, as if it's struggling somewhat to produce the notes. Now, all of my complaints can be addressed by a lot with good amplification, like the ones that I listed above. But in the end, it's still the HD650, greatly improved, but not to the point where I feel like shelling out the big bucks needed to do it.

The bottom line is, if I had to choose between the two, assuming that I have no other headphones, I would not choose either, because both are flawed in ways that ultimately make musical enjoyment less than optimal for me. But since I'm not in that position, it's a lot easier for me to say that when push comes to shove, I'd have to go with the HD650, because of the midrange weirdness that the W5000 exhibits. However, I think my next step would be to sell both the HD650s and the W5000s and try an electro-stat setup instead, because I want something that sounds effortless.

[tkam]

Your thoughts on the W5000 are exactly the same way I feel about them. The midrange issue really gives them this overall unnatural sound that bugs the hell out of me.

[n_maher]

As much as I like my K1000 setup, I can't lie down with them, so I started looking for "normal" headphones. <snip>

After reading all that the first thought that popped into my head is that you really should try the HD600s before abandoning dynamic cans. They are different enough from the HD650s that after owning both and selling the 600s I bought a pair of 580s and modded them (re-screened) to get back what I felt like I was missing not having the 600s around. Some times I feel like the 650s are better, some times it is the other way round.

[en480c4]

After reading all that the first thought that popped into my head is that you really should try the HD600s before abandoning dynamic cans. They are different enough from the HD650s that after owning both and selling the 600s I bought a pair of 580s and modded them (re-screened) to get back what I felt like I was missing not having the 600s around. Some times I feel like the 650s are better, some times it is the other way round.

This was pretty much what I was going to post, and Nate saved me the trouble! The 600's definitely are "airier" and the lighter low end definitely provides more speed. They're worth trying, anyway.

[aerius]

On the other hand the 600's & 580's still have that hole in the soundstage, and they still sound like they're falling behind the beat of the music. Yeah it's airier sounding, but the other fundamental issues are still there. Beyers will likely give you the same treble issues and thin sound of the W5000, the K340 is nice if you get a good one but that raises more amp issues than you'd likely want to deal with. The K340 keeps most of the K1000 sound, but with a richer midrange & smaller (though still larger than 650) soundstage.

[humanflyz]

On the other hand the 600's & 580's still have that hole in the soundstage, and they still sound like they're falling behind the beat of the music. Yeah it's airier sounding, but the other fundamental issues are still there. Beyers will likely give you the same treble issues and thin sound of the W5000, the K340 is nice if you get a good one but that raises more amp issues than you'd likely want to deal with. The K340 keeps most of the K1000 sound, but with a richer midrange & smaller (though still larger than 650) soundstage.

Thank god, someone else who gets what I mean when I say that the HD650s fall behind the beat of the music. I posted my original post at the other site and no one gets what I mean by that.

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

It could be worse. The hd600's do a lot better job of keeping up with the music then sony cd3000's.

Biggie.

[aerius]

Thank god, someone else who gets what I mean when I say that the HD650s fall behind the beat of the music. I posted my original post at the other site and no one gets what I mean by that.

PiccoloNamek is a fucking tool, I think I had a run-in or 2 with him before I was banned.

Anyway, my impressions of the 650 is quite similar to yours, if I didn't have my K340 I could live with it, but since I do have a K340 the flaws are more than I'd want to tolerate. It has been over 2 years since I've heard the Stax 404 system so I'm rather hesitant to comment on it. It is more effortless than a 650, but at the same time it doesn't have the groove & drive of a Grado, compared to say, an RS-1 it still feels like it's falling behind the beat a bit, but then again pretty much everything does including my K340. The Stax has more of the HP-1000 character, it's not going to put you to sleep like a Senn but you ain't gonna be dancing along and playing air guitar either. Seeing how you like the K1000, I think the Stax 404 should be a good match for you, however, you're still going to have issues lying down with them if you have a big fluffy pillow. They need space to breathe and if the pillow's too big it ain't gonna be good.

[humanflyz]

I think I'll go try the 404 and see how I like it. If I don't, I'm going to the RS-1s.

[Grand Enigma]

I think I'll go try the 404 and see how I like it. If I don't, I'm going to the RS-1s.

RS-1s are better... and this is coming from a Senn guy

[grawk]

If you can find em, try out the W11JPN and W10VTG. They're the only 2 at's I've heard, but they're apparently different from the rest of the ATs. I find them very musical and enjoyable. Enough so that I sold my PS3000s and HP1s to stick with hhf1 and w10vtg.

[deepak]

I think I'll go try the 404 and see how I like it. If I don't, I'm going to the RS-1s.

I would stay far away from the 404.

It has an upper midrange spike that colors the sound, and makes a lot of vocal stuff sound really strange and unnatural. Unless all you listen to is electronic music the SR-404 is something I would never live with again. I tried it out with a few top sources and it still had its flaws.

I was only using it with the SRM-313 (and I saw that you wanted to pair it with a SRM-006t), but I'm not sure how much a better amp is going to improve them. The SR-404 are very clinical and dull, whereas to me the K1000 is clinical yet at the same time fun to listen to. Did the big San Fran meet at Neil's house happen? I recall someone was bringing an SR-404, you should listen to it a lot before you make your decision.

Straight out of the Lavry I can certainly live with the HD650's faults. I'm going to hear them balanced, I'll post some initial impressions here but I intend to do a lengthy review.

[humanflyz]

I could live with the HD650s as a secondary phone, but I'm in the mood to try out stuff that I haven't heard before. So who knows, maybe I'll eventually end up with the HD650s again.

[granodemostasa]

yea... pretty much my impressions when i compared them about two months ago...

actually, i think you should try out the GS1000, i think you'd like it.

[humanflyz]

yea... pretty much my impressions when i compared them about two months ago...

actually, i think you should try out the GS1000, i think you'd like it.

I did try the GS1000 when David J still had them. I thought they are very good, but not worth the price, and there's a treble spike that can get too shrill, even for me, and I'm used to bright cans.

[granodemostasa]

the GS1000 is going to be reflective of the rig it is playing out of. I never encountered any "brightness" with the ZD. have you tried it out of the lavry?

[KenW]

On first listen, the GS1K was impressive but that spike does become a bit of an issue after an hour or so. Also and I know this will sound nuts, the GS1K had a strange presentation to my ear. Almost like a reverb. Okay, I know that's nuts but I can't think of another word for it. Just couldn't do extended listening with those cans. Very comfortable thought.

Curious flyz......have you tried the 701? Personally, I like it better than the 600.

[humanflyz]

I tried the GS1000 out of a Dynamight and a MPX3 SE, forgot what the source was each time.

@KenW:

Yeah, actually I owned the K701 for a long time, but after I got the K1000s, I felt that it was kind of redundant to keep two AKG headphones at the same time. Since then I've been just trying out different stuff.

[Dusty Chalk]

..there's a treble spike that can get too shrill, even for me, and I'm used to bright cans...

I don't think it's just one spike, I think there's a small mountain range in the frequency spectrum. Maybe even the letters M and/or W, possibly a whole word. At least, to my admittedly amateurish ears. I'd be curious how they measure.

[Dusty Chalk]

Okay, I looked up the frequency response of the Grado GS1000 on Headroom -- it appears to be a large spike and a large dip (and the dip appears to be in a "normal" range in which a lot of headphones have a dip), but I could swear I hear another (large) peak and dip below the measured one.

And Tyll -- why are there two DT880's? Is one of them the more recent one? They appear to measure pretty much exactly the same on all four graphs...

[deepak]

x-posted

humanflyz I can agree with most of what you said about the HD650 (I've only briefly heard the W5000 on a few occasions so no comments about that).

I know when I first registered on Headfi 2 years ago the HD650 was a really popular headphone for having excellent soundstage. I heard them on and off and wasn't really "blown away", which is fine since most headphones that did that to me were usually fatiguing in the long run.

I've had the HD650 for a while now (bought them after the K1000 as a bassy alternative). And the 3 biggest flaws that I see are:

1) the soundstage is much smaller than most people make it out to be (maybe they haven't heard anything better or they switched from a Grado ). Even then the Grado RS series have a very nice headstage (to me it's very close to the HD650), but a smaller soundstage.

2) if I switch from listening to the K1000 to the HD650 I immediately notice the instruments are well placed left and right but there isn't much height, or anything between the left and right and highest point; it's pretty much empty. This effect is most obvious for most music except for some studio rock music. This is fine for the "focus area" of the intended recording (usually vocals, which the artist probably wants you to focus on) which is usually placed directly in front of your ear but the rest of the imaging just isn't concise to my ears.

3) the slowness you're describing. This is probably the most difficult to describe, but more than likely I'm perceiving it as lack of PRaT (pace, rhythm and timing). One of the few pieces of audiophile jargon I feel I've come to grips with since this ultimately determines how fun something sounds to me.

I've just said a lot of bad stuff about the HD650, but I haven't mentioned any of its strengths which it has plenty of. I'm going to hold onto these for a long time, and I do hope that going balanced will solve at least 1 of the 3 points I put up above. Hope this helps someone, I really shouldn't be using my break time with these lengthy replies

[humanflyz]

Yeah, it's pretty easy to locate where the HD650s fall short, but paradoxically, they don't really do anything GLARINGLY wrong. I guess it's mediocre in this sense, but in a non-offensive way. Of course I've heard them sound exceptional, and that's probably their biggest strength to me: that they can really scale with the rest of your equipment. But you know, for their price, they are not bad headphones.

[humanflyz]

Here's a question for those who have heard the AT-AD2000: do they also have that weird midrange "hollowness" as the W5000?