Tachikoma Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Isn't this just a variant of the "we all hear things different" arguement? NTTAWWT. I think of it as different PSUs = different quantity/quality in supplied power, different components = different EMI/RFI, etc. Hell even using a different mobo might result in different voltage regulation at the PCI slot. Whats NTTAWWT supposed to mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monkey Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 so much depends upon a red wheel barrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Obviously it will need matching accessories. "For audiophiles looking for tweaking their computer cables, Kimber was showing the new silver wire USB cables ($125 per meter) and you can use then with or without ferrites." RMAF 2009 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest Show Event Coverage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feckn_eejit Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 NTTAWWT supposed to mean? Urban Dictionary: NTTAWWT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morphsci Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I think of it as different PSUs = different quantity/quality in supplied power, different components = different EMI/RFI, etc. Hell even using a different mobo might result in different voltage regulation at the PCI slot. Whats NTTAWWT supposed to mean? I absolutely agree. However, compared to the potential variation among living organisms due to the interaction of genotypes and environment as well as the non-linearities introduced by ontogeny the variation among computers is pretty small. A lot of people dismiss individual variation as a cop out when discussing audio comparisons. I do not. OK, enough geeky science talk, back to your regularly scheduled discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I indeed have that chinese thing (Musiland Monitor 01USD). Unfortunately, my desktop has been broken for a week, and I finally fixed it this weekend. Prior to that, I can say the little device worked at leats on par with the Trends Audio UD10.1, which I also have. Is it bit-perfect? Havent tested it yet. Is it jitter-free? I doubt it, at that price point. How much jitter? Who knows exactly, but it doesn't hurt my listening at all. Frankly, this whoel jitter thing is a big deal to many, but I have yet to encounter jitter as a problem. Perhaps I am not aware of it because I havent listened to true async products or other "higher up in the chain" devices. What I can tell you is that if I hear a product with jitter in the single digits, and another in the double or low triple, if I can't hear the difference, I am not going to shell out extra hundreds or thousands for something I cannot hear anyway, even if it is scientifically measurable. The thing is, I have not experienced those single digit jitter products yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachikoma Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I absolutely agree. However, compared to the potential variation among living organisms due to the interaction of genotypes and environment as well as the non-linearities introduced by ontogeny the variation among computers is pretty small. A lot of people dismiss individual variation as a cop out when discussing audio comparisons. I do not. OK, enough geeky science talk, back to your regularly scheduled discussion. I believe the guy compared them out of a scope as well so all that is moot. Frankly, this whoel jitter thing is a big deal to many, but I have yet to encounter jitter as a problem. Perhaps I am not aware of it because I havent listened to true async products or other "higher up in the chain" devices. Jitter isn't really a "problem" per se, but its the only thing that makes one bitperfect transport sound different from another bitperfect transport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morphsci Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I was talking more in the general dismissal of the phenomenon not in any specific case, but point noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 That's one of the core problems with computer audio. There are even more opportunities for audiophile voodoo belief than with any conventional source. Just go and peer into the gaping maw of lunacy that is the Audio Asylum PC audio board. More RAM = Moar bass. PowerPC Macs sound WAY better than Intel Macs. SSD's have better definition than conventional hard drives. And that's before even touching on the software side of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadhead Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I believe the guy compared them out of a scope as well so all that is moot. Jitter isn't really a "problem" per se, but its the only thing that could possibly make one bitperfect transport sound different from another bitperfect transport. FTFY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morphsci Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 That's one of the core problems with computer audio. There are even more opportunities for audiophile voodoo belief than with any conventional source. Just go and peer into the gaping maw of lunacy that is the Audio Asylum PC audio board. More RAM = Moar bass. PowerPC Macs sound WAY better than Intel Macs. SSD's have better definition than conventional hard drives. And that's before even touching on the software side of the equation. Yep, any real idea can be taken to the extreme of ridiculousness by the lunatic fringe. Sometimes it gets tiring trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. I think I'll stop now before I use up my quota of trite phrases ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebby Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 That's one of the core problems with computer audio. There are even more opportunities for audiophile voodoo belief than with any conventional source. Just go and peer into the gaping maw of lunacy that is the Audio Asylum PC audio board. More RAM = Moar bass. PowerPC Macs sound WAY better than Intel Macs. SSD's have better definition than conventional hard drives. And that's before even touching on the software side of the equation. I haven't heard about that, I'll have to take a look at this lunacy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarium Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 What I can tell you is that if I hear a product with jitter in the single digits, and another in the double or low triple, if I can't hear the difference, I am not going to shell out extra hundreds or thousands for something I cannot hear anyway, even if it is scientifically measurable. The thing is, I have not experienced those single digit jitter products yet. I dunno I've never personally been all that willing to accept a manufacturer's jitter specs. I'm not sure there is a standard and universally used methodology to measure actual jitter performance. I bet most companies don't even really measure it they just quote the specs on some clock or part they use (This seems to be the typical modus operandi for manufacturers like the many who quote the SNR performance of the dac chips for their dacs performance when who knows if that's true or not)... I certainly wouldn't advise to you to totally discount jitter as something that matters to your ears prior to doing some tests yourself. I can definitely hear the difference. It is something i min-max to optimize? No. I'd say it certainly matters less than stuff like actual pieces of the chain (headphones/amp/source), design, output stages/devices, tubes, i/v, etc etc. But it's certainly more important and less subtle than say... cables of any sort. Well to my ears anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I I certainly wouldn't advise to you to totally discount jitter as something that matters to your ears prior to doing some tests yourself. I can definitely hear the difference. It is something i min-max to optimize? No. I'd say it certainly matters less than stuff like actual pieces of the chain (headphones/amp/source), design, output stages/devices, tubes, i/v, etc etc. But it's certainly more important and less subtle than say... cables of any sort. Well to my ears anyways. On the contrary, I am not disregarding it in anyway, just saying that I haven't found a SPDIF converter that shows me how jitter can affect sound signature yet (remember, all I've tried is the trends and the musiland). I'm hoping that something worth $900 as discussed in this thread would show a clearly discernible difference. My point is that, if that difference is measurable via scientific means, but my ears cannot hear it, it really becomes a moot point for me. If you lend me $900 I'll definitely find out first hand though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 The best transport is the one where you're telepathically streaming the bits from your mind to the DAC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarium Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 On the contrary, I am not disregarding it in anyway, just saying that I haven't found a SPDIF converter that shows me how jitter can affect sound signature yet (remember, all I've tried is the trends and the musiland). I'm hoping that something worth $900 as discussed in this thread would show a clearly discernible difference. My point is that, if that difference is measurable via scientific means, but my ears cannot hear it, it really becomes a moot point for me. If you lend me $900 I'll definitely find out first hand though! Well of course I don't care how much jitter is in your chain... moreover I am not championing the wavelenth product by any means. In fact if you've read my posts carefully you'd know that my stance is that this product may not be better than your 70-75 dollar Chinese doohickey. Mostly I am highly skeptical that most manufacturers who quote jitter specs really measure how much jitter their product has and I bet many merely quote specs from parts they use. I'd expect Gordon Rankin to be legit in his measurements along with a few others, but... well a lot of people make claims like 0 jitter or jitter-free and it is those I'm skeptical of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blubliss Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 @ deepak: Damn, you found my method before I got it patented . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I'd expect Gordon Rankin to be legit in his measurements along with a few others, but... well a lot of people make claims like 0 jitter or jitter-free and it is those I'm skeptical of. Another interesting source (that I can not say one way or the other) is Dan Lavry. PSW Recording Forums: Dan Lavry => Proper word clock implementation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 You know what, I might drop the dough for this, just to see. Hell, I've done it with amps and cans and DACs, why not the transport. Though, to be frank, I'd like to see what other high end options there are as well, and choose between them. Also, don't expect me to do reviews because I suck at that and it's just not my thing, so if someone reputable wants to make the review in my place, we can discuss loaner time. EDIT: I like BNC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 should have bnc output for s/pdif really... ...I^2S would be nice as well Hmm, here is a cheaper contender featuring I2S output even (never seen that before, and I don't have anything that takes that anyway, but cool I guess): http://www.aprilmusic.com/main/sub02_03_02.html Choices choices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screaming oranges Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Well, this is supposed to be better than the Squeezebox. It is meant to compete Empirical Audio Off Ramp ($700), Sonicweld Diverter ($1000), Lynx AES16 ($700), etc... So I researched this a bit, and ran across the following. This can't be serious! SCOTTY: It's not clear whether or not the Diverter is an asynchronous or isosynchronous USB connection. It is also not clear if the SPDIF output is transformer coupled or not. Both of these questions need to be answered in order to make an informed buying decision. Scotty CRYOPARTS: Circuit design, PCB layout and skill of the designer/engineer are the most important things to consider in a design like this. Some will get it, some won't, and that's cool. Lee ***few posts later on next page*** CRYOPARTS: *Scotty*--I talked with the engineer and he is willing to divulge this about the design: "BTW, for the guy in this thread that asked about transformer coupling: yes, the gen III is transformer-coupled, with the best shielded tranny I could find. It is driven directly by an extremely high-spec, current feedback opamp with its own dedicated ultra low-noise supply that powers nothing else." Peace, Lee But still no answer to the async question! At that price point, I'd expect them to be clear on that. SOURCE/LINK: CryoParts Presents Sonicweld 24/96 USB to S/PDIF Converter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 @ deepak: Damn, you found my method before I got it patented .Dude, emacs already has a macro for that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopstretch Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 But still no answer to the async question! At that price point, I'd expect them to be clear on that. At that price point, I'd expect them to be vague on that. Have you looked at the Bel Canto USB Link yet? It's had some good reviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postjack Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 hagtech works fine for me. I bet now that you got a fancy college education you think you're better then your old man, is that it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feckn_eejit Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Hmm, here is a cheaper contender featuring I2S output even (never seen that before, and I don't have anything that takes that anyway, but cool I guess): http://www.aprilmusic.com/main/sub02_03_02.html Choices choices...Tits! Would need a DIN->RJ45 cable to be hacked up to work with the North Star DAC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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