spritzer Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Got any supporting documentation for that claim? Like similar designs, one done all discrete and one using the opamp equivalent and some measured results comparing the two. Nope just what I've heard from one of the amateur designers up here. He's been obsessed to preach about the evils of excessive feedback and opamp usage (EE teachers can be wacky like that) so he's constructed a number of similar amps and showed us the difference. It mostly showed how bad cheap opamps are but the good ones can come close to a fully discrete circuit but the cost goes up as well. Who cares anyway since this is sand amp crap!! Give me tubes or give me death... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I'd be more than just a little shocked to learn that it's cheaper and more cost effective to implement and design a discrete circuit that performs to the level of most high-end opamp based designs. Better performance is almost always possible if you don't care about price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I'd be more than just a little shocked to learn that it's cheaper and more cost effective to implement and design a discrete circuit that performs to the level of most high-end opamp based designs. Better performance is almost always possible if you don't care about price. I think I got the JISBOS curcuit to around $6 per channel for parts (granted, this means putting pots in and then taking them out and replacing them with resistors). That's getting close to the price of some of the buffers out there, and less than the good chips that are unity gain stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I think I got the JISBOS curcuit to around $6 per channel for parts (granted, this means putting pots in and then taking them out and replacing them with resistors). That's getting close to the price of some of the buffers out there, and less than the good chips that are unity gain stable. Something in that description leads me to believe it'd be significantly more $$ to implement that solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Something in that description leads me to believe it'd be significantly more $$ to implement that solution. ok, use a decade box, does bench equipment count? anyways, I agree it took me a bit to come up with a counter-example, but I think it's a decent one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I'd be more than just a little shocked to learn that it's cheaper and more cost effective to implement and design a discrete circuit that performs to the level of most high-end opamp based designs. Better performance is almost always possible if you don't care about price. It almost always comes down to what is easier to do. Why would Esoteric go to all that trouble creating the best transport in the world and match it with a clock laved DAC when the output stage is some opamp mess straight off the spec sheet. This applies to nearly all manufacturing where discrete parts are better and cheaper in the end in the hands of people that know how to use them. In the end it all depends on how much you payed for said engineering solution. I got very angry when I saw the opamp output of my old Meridian G08 but I'm fine with it in a cheaper player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hYdrociTy Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I got very angry when I saw the opamp output of my old Meridian G08 but I'm fine with it in a cheaper player. How did you feel about it before you opened it up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhd812 Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I never understood why people in general are so against opamps, then again i never really cared to look why they are. to me the opamp in idea is a newer technology version of discrete.. i choose the product for the sound not because i have a belief that this type of product can not sound good or something of that nature. as far as the g08 having opamps i couldn't care less, its the sound i like not the pretty colors on the boards inside.... your ears don't give a fuck what circuit or whats in the pretty case. its the bias you set up in your memory that does... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I think I got the JISBOS curcuit to around $6 per channel for parts (granted, this means putting pots in and then taking them out and replacing them with resistors). That's getting close to the price of some of the buffers out there, and less than the good chips that are unity gain stable. That sounds very expensive to implement if your labor isn't free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 How did you feel about it before you opened it up? Opening it up only confirmed my suspicion that something wasn't quite right under the hood. Still I got it cheap and it didn't see much use the last years as I've been running a few DAC's and CDP''s that I've had on loan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I never understood why people in general are so against opamps, then again i never really cared to look why they are. to me the opamp in idea is a newer technology version of discrete.. i choose the product for the sound not because i have a belief that this type of product can not sound good or something of that nature. as far as the g08 having opamps i couldn't care less, its the sound i like not the pretty colors on the boards inside.... your ears don't give a fuck what circuit or whats in the pretty case. its the bias you set up in your memory that does... The sound of the G08 is mediocre at best and the same goes for the 808. Meridian are simply trying to recreate in software what they they used to do with solid engineering and experience and are doing a crap job at it. The only good thing about it is the chassis work and clever use of damping. It doesn't surprise me that you don't care about good engineering as you like the RSA crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Got any supporting documentation for that claim? Like similar designs, one done all discrete and one using the opamp equivalent and some measured results comparing the two. Not sure what post you were quoting, so maybe I have the context wrong, but as an example Gilmore's discrete circuits (which are similar to whats found in a lot of high-end pre-amps/power amps) can't be made into an op-amp chip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Not sure what post you were quoting, so maybe I have the context wrong, but as an example Gilmore's discrete circuits (which are similar to whats found in a lot of high-end pre-amps/power amps) can't be made into an op-amp chip He was quoting me. It's true that only some circuits can be made into opamps but that doesn't change the fact that their internal components such as the silicone caps will never beat a MKP cap. Still opamps have their place and I only object to their use in the high end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhd812 Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 The sound of the G08 is mediocre at best and the same goes for the 808. Meridian are simply trying to recreate in software what they they used to do with solid engineering and experience and are doing a crap job at it. The only good thing about it is the chassis work and clever use of damping. It doesn't surprise me that you don't care about good engineering as you like the RSA crap. last i checked my ears where not on your head.. you seem to have forgotten why most people are in this hobby. its not Brand, design, looks, etc... its sound, sound they Enjoy..not you... you think Meridian is this or that then you rock with it but don't try to act like the audio god of this world. the g08 makes me happy and so does my RSA stuff.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin gilmore Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 My opinion is that all the meridian cd players i have seen are mediocre sounding units with a fancy front panel and a price 3 or 4 times what they are worth. What did you expect from tuberoller's massive pitch for them at the time. Still has not worn off. And lets not forget the $50 computer cdrom drive as the transport. There is to this day no fully complementary silicon process. You cannot make perfect npn transistors AND pnp transistors on the same piece of silicon at the same time. One has to be lateral, and the other vertical. So most opamps are virtually 90% npn transistors. No matter how hard you try you are not going to get identical slew rates for rising and falling edges. If you are in the fully differential, fully balanced, fully complementary camp as I clearly am, then opamps are not going to cut it for the seriously high end stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Chalk Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 The sound of the G08 is mediocre at best ...You lost me right there. My opinion is that all the meridian cd players i have seen are ...Shouldn't that be "...heard..."? You lost me as well. I'll be the first to admit that the G08 does not sound good in every system, and I understand people wanting it to sound good in every system for that price (I certainly would), but I have heard it sound very good -- one of the top 10 best sources I've ever heard -- in the right system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Not sure what post you were quoting, so maybe I have the context wrong, but as an example Gilmore's discrete circuits (which are similar to whats found in a lot of high-end pre-amps/power amps) can't be made into an op-amp chip I was mostly fishing to see if he'd ever tried to compare similar discrete vs. opamp implementations, not trying to imply that they can always be made to be equal. Now, hearing that his listening experience is somewhat limited in the scope of comparison (cheap opamps) I have a good frame of reference to qualify his rather strong hatred of opamps. Don't get me wrong, the best equipment that I've heard is a fully discrete design (amb's beta22) but I've also heard opamp based designs that sounded pretty good. I don't think that either of my sources, both of which are chips based, sound particularly awful either or mid-fi. Now that might just be my frame of reference and a measure of my wallet but the blanket dismissal of the opamp doesn't sit well with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I'm perfectly comfortable considering my m3 to be high end, and it's got opamps at it's core. The apogee minidac and my m3 may be considered to be midfi by others, but any combination of gear that gets out of the way and just gives me the music is good enough for me. I hope that never stops being true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 That sounds very expensive to implement if your labor isn't free. same can be said about designing an opamp, labor isn't free. I guarantee more $$ goes into designing and fabing an opamp than designing + implementing a JISBOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grawk Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Building a JISBOS takes a LOT longer than soldering in an opamp socket and plugging in the opamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Building a JISBOS takes a LOT longer than soldering in an opamp socket and plugging in the opamp. I think I misinterpreted your original comment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 My opinion is that all the meridian cd players i have seen are mediocre sounding units with a fancy front panel and a price 3 or 4 times what they are worth. What did you expect from tuberoller's massive pitch for them at the time. Still has not worn off. And lets not forget the $50 computer cdrom drive as the transport. The drive is actually 40$ but who cares... You lost me right there It's mediocre as it is designed to sound nice and not right. It will gloss over all the natural edges and present some blob of sound. When a TDA1451A equipped dac is capable of more resolution and a cleaner output I had enough and the G08 went on the 'gon. The player isn't all bad and I've heard plenty that are worse but it isn't in any way a step forward over some good vintage players. That is something my APL will fix or I'm taking a hammer to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc Posted January 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 wow, pretty expensive CD-ROM, must be decent quality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 wow, pretty expensive CD-ROM, must be decent quality The fact that it needed to be replaced after about 1000 hours points in the other direction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dc Posted January 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 wtf, 1000 hours goes by pretty quickly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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