DefectiveAudioComponent Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Was it a quiet enough listening environment for you to properly compare? And did you try doing the backwave/comb filter test that wualta mentioned? I forgot the comb test ( No, the environment was not silent, and I am not sure the xcan could actually drive both the LCD-1 and the HD800 at the same time. But there was another guy there who wanted to listen as well so I couldn't use just one can at a time. He also preferred the HD800 in the quick comparison. I think I'll have another go at it when I pick my own xcan up after repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mypasswordis Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Cool, should be interesting having one more go at comparing the two, even if you get similar results the second time. I completely forgot to listen to an HD800 at the meet yesterday. In fact, I'm pretty sure I forgot to listen to everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefectiveAudioComponent Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 Cool, should be interesting having one more go at comparing the two, even if you get similar results the second time. I completely forgot to listen to an HD800 at the meet yesterday. In fact, I'm pretty sure I forgot to listen to everything. I certainly don't hear anything wrong with the LCD-1 here at home, connected to my NAD preamp. I would like another listen in the store to pinpoint the difference. It could be that the HD800 is actually better, but it was a very short listen so I am far from sure yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted March 22, 2010 Report Share Posted March 22, 2010 you really need to get a decent amp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBel84 Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I will need to spend more time with the HD800 and T1 it seems, neither impressed me at the meet but it was with all the caveats that come along with meet conditions, noise, equipment etc. In fact I would take ibudz over the HD800 paired with a Benchmark based on the poor experience. As for the LCD1 - my memory of them is a pretty good all round performer, good extention in both directions with no real nasty bumps. Comfy too even if a little cheesy. ..dB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeggy Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 I gave the 800 a pretty good listen and it's not for me. Lacked deep bass weight and body. Nice enough, but not nice enough if you get my meaning. Not heard the T1 yet, or Audeze or HE-5 for that matter. Sadly none are closed so not much use to me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mypasswordis Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 To be honest, there are many many headphones I would rather listen to, than stock (undamped) vintage orthos, quite possibly including iBuds. Only after modding does the sound become presentable. I also for the most part can't stand the coloration in sound caused by closed-back headphones. Still kicking myself for forgetting to listen to the HD800 at the meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeggy Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Aside from the old wharfedale, there isn't any ortho I've yet heard that is listenable in stock form. Even tweaked most are not my cup of tea. Rather listen to stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mypasswordis Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Hell yeah 'stats. But I can imagine that not working so well if you need the isolation, in which something like the Thunderpants is a good solution. I didn't get a great grasp on the sound of Colin's pair at the meet but it seemed a bit mid-bassy to me so maybe one bass port could be sealed. I heard Kabeer's old YH1000 that Hirsch bought and they were better than I expected for a stock ortho but still needed work to sound decent, just like any other ortho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swt61 Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Hmmm, I wouldn't call the pair I heard (Tony's) as overly midbassy, but I imagine what's upstream could play a big role in that. From the β22/Original CDP they were very well balanced. From memory (25 years ago) the YH1000 was indeed the best Ortho out of the box. I'd love to tweak one today, but the insane prices will not see that happening. As for the HD800...I found them to be quite a competent headphone when I had them in house, but they lacked emotion for me. I imagine the pairing with the β22 might have been just too dry. I was very impressed with the Audeze LCD-1 that Don modded for Marc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mypasswordis Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Hmmm, I wouldn't call the pair I heard (Tony's) as overly midbassy, but I imagine what's upstream could play a big role in that. From the β22/Original CDP they were very well balanced. From memory (25 years ago) the YH1000 was indeed the best Ortho out of the box. I'd love to tweak one today, but the insane prices will not see that happening. As for the HD800...I found them to be quite a competent headphone when I had them in house, but they lacked emotion for me. I imagine the pairing with the β22 might have been just too dry. I was very impressed with the Audeze LCD-1 that Don modded for Marc! I would need a longer period of time with the Thunderpants in a quiet listening environment to really get a good view on the sound. But again, I typically just don't like the sound of closed headphones. There are exceptions to that of the ones I've heard such as the T40v1... no, I think that's it for me, and the TP possibly could end up being another. Most orthos are closed-back but vented level with the magnets, which helps, and I usually damp the backs of the cups. It's not ideal, as absorbing the backwave completely would mean absolutely no comb filter effect/controlled backwave reflection, and typically whatever is used to damp doesn't damp all frequencies the same amount. As to the price of the YH1000, I think it's mainly the rarity that keeps prices so high, though the aluminum cups and overall design seem to be quite good (and different from the lower end Yammy orthos). I liked the Don-modded LCD1 as well. Only things I remember it lacking soundwise were a bit of bass extension and soundstage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefectiveAudioComponent Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 At this particular listening occasion, the main difference in headstage between the LCD-1 and the HD800 was that the HD800 had the instruments more evenly distributed left-right, whereas the LCD-1 had a tighter group in the middle, and then ambient sounds further out. Also, the LCD-1 appeared to be more up front, the instruments appeared a bit more distant on the HD800. But I also think that the LCD-1 performed unusually poor. Perhaps the MF xcan hybrid tube amp isn't the best match with the LCD-1? Ideas? I also am considering what dac unit to connect. I used to have the 0404 USB, which is quite detailed... does anyone have an opinion about other units with good synergy with the LCD-1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swt61 Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 Every properly damped ortho I've listened to needed lots of power. I doubt the Xcan would even come close to opening the LCD-1 up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mypasswordis Posted March 24, 2010 Report Share Posted March 24, 2010 At this particular listening occasion, the main difference in headstage between the LCD-1 and the HD800 was that the HD800 had the instruments more evenly distributed left-right, whereas the LCD-1 had a tighter group in the middle, and then ambient sounds further out. Also, the LCD-1 appeared to be more up front, the instruments appeared a bit more distant on the HD800. But I also think that the LCD-1 performed unusually poor. Perhaps the MF xcan hybrid tube amp isn't the best match with the LCD-1? Ideas? I also am considering what dac unit to connect. I used to have the 0404 USB, which is quite detailed... does anyone have an opinion about other units with good synergy with the LCD-1? The soundstage observations you made make a lot of sense and are expected imo, since the HD800 drivers are angled and distanced further from the ears. Only thing that would stop this from happening is funky things happening with backwave reflection. It's odd that you keep finding the LCD-1 to sound worse at this place than at your house. Aren't you also using an Xcan at home? The 0404 USB is not terrible but it's not great either. But I don't see any reason for it to favor the HD800 over the LCD-1 for the purposes of your test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefectiveAudioComponent Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Opening it up.... what's that supposed to mean? Right now, I'm pairing the LCD-1 with an underpowered bright amp (The bright XCANv3 tube amp with its weak wall-wart) and (before an accident happened to it) the bright EMU 0404 USB dac. Now, if the LCD-1 is also on the bright side, I was thinking this might be too much of the bright hifi-sound when all is added up. That didn't perhaps need a great thinker to figure out, but what to do about it? Have anybody around here heard about any dac around the same price as the 404usb that could be a better match for this setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swt61 Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) I bought an AKG K340 in 1985. I used that headphone for 20 years before discovering Head-Fi. I drove the K340 with whatever headphone output my current gear had, and never really gave it a second thought. The moment I drove that headphone through a good, dedicated headphone amp (Dynalo) I was shocked at what I'd been missing. Successive amps improved even more on that. What I mean by 'open up' is just that. The soundstage opens up, the imaging improves, bass usually improves and overall balance just gets better. Some headphones sound fine with most amps, but can drastically change character when driven by a high powered, quality amp. The K340, K1000 and HD6XX headphones are three that instantly come to mind. The extra power doesn't just drive them louder, it de-congests them for lack of a better term. Once properly dampened, most Orthodynamics became far less efficient to drive. Edited March 31, 2010 by swt61 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morphsci Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 I bought an AKG K340 in 1985. I used that headphone for 20 years before discovering Head-Fi. I drove the K340 with whatever headphone output my current gear had, and never really gave it a second thought. The moment I drove that headphone through a good, dedicated headphone amp (Dynalo) I was shocked at what I'd been missing. Successive amps improved even more on that. What I mean by 'open up' is just that. The soundstage opens up, the imaging improves, bass usually improves and overall balance just gets better. Some headphones sound fine with most amps, but can drastically change character when driven by a high powered, quality amp. The K340, K1000 and HD6XX headphones are three that instantly come to mind. The extra power doesn't just drive them louder, it de-congests them for lack of a better term. Once properly dampened, most Orthodynamics became far less efficient to drive. This should be required reading at HF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefectiveAudioComponent Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 I'm trying to drive the LCD-1 from the XCANv3, which is rated at 1 W, powering it with the 500mA wall wart. The LCD-1 is specified to accept somewhat higher power levels (like many other orthos) Power Handling: 5 W RMS, 10W program, 50W peak, 100 ms. Sensitivity: 96 dB, 1 mW Impedance: 40 Ohms Output: 126 dB, 1W; 133 dB, 5W My main problem is that it all ends up being a bit bright with stock tubes and when paired with the E-MU 0404 usb. At low volume listening it becomes a bit... veiled... and low bass only comes out at higher volumes (that could be either due to the xcan, the EMU, or the LCD1). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swt61 Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Well I haven't heard a stock pair of LCD-1s. The pair I've listened to has been tweaked by Don (dBel84). I currently have on loan a Fostex T-10 that Don also tweaked. I have to say that Don has a great ear, or at least we have similar hearing. The T-10 is balanced perfectly to my ear, but the LCD-1 is tipped hot. I had assumed that it was bright because that's how the owner (luvdunhill) prefers his phones, but it could be that the LCD-1 is just tipped upwards from the start. Not sure there. That's something to consider before starting with your associated gear. I'd PM Don to get the skinny on the LCD-1 signature. He's a nice guy and very ortho savvy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBel84 Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 The LCD1 is voiced forward naturally but on the pair you heard, they had been pushed higher per request..dB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvdunhill Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Don, I was wondering, where would you start tweaking these: Ortho headphones from Planar speakers - Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio TIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrarroyo Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 Every properly damped ortho I've listened to needed lots of power. I doubt the Xcan would even come close to opening the LCD-1 up. Actually a lot depends on how loud you listen and if your source can output 2 Vrms. In my case the X-Can V2 using a Little Pinkie drives the HE5 very nicely (I listen at low volume). The X-Can V2 put out 1 Watt and the V3 1.5 Watts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spritzer Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 I would send those to Doug., he's got skillz with stuff like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n_maher Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 So any of you know anything about the HE-5LE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBel84 Posted April 1, 2010 Report Share Posted April 1, 2010 LOL Spitzer beat me too it - I was going to suggest sending it to Scotland . sitting on the sub may help some ..dB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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