Neko Audio DAC

[Voltron]

Third bottle.

You are the shizz.

[guzziguy]

Third bottle.

This pretty much summarizes my post.

[Iron_Dreamer]

I still wonder how much better does a $5000 DAC really sound vs a $1295 DAC. There has to be a point of diminishing returns, where you could stop at something like this and never need to go past that?

Hmmm...here's my basic thoughts, based only on personal experience, hence no inclusion of vinyl/cassette/etc. Each tier gives a decidedly greater level of musical/audio enjoyment, and of course there is room for variation within each tier (i.e. I'd rather listen to a Lavry Gold than a DCC2, but they are both decidedly better than anything in the tier below, and not as good as in the tier above). Entry price is the cheapest commonly available (new or used) item that could get someone to that performance level, that I am aware of.

And of course, if the recording is shit, it all becomes a lot less important, thanks loudness wars!

shit-fi - minimum entry price $0: computer on-board sound, your average boombox (price based on built-in sound of existing computer)

low-fi - minimum entry price $20: typical DAP, most sound cards, average CD/DVD players (price based on cheap DVD player)

mid-fi - minimum entry price $100: the best sound cards and DAPs, mediocre dedicated DACs, entry audiophile CD/DVD players (price based on EMU 0404USB)

high-fi - minimum entry price $350: solidly executed dedicated DACs like the Lavry or Neko DACs, CD/DVD players of similar quality (price based on Pico DAC)

ultra-fi - minimum entry price $3500: Higher end DACs (and corresponding CDP's) like them EMM Labs DCC2, Lavry Gold, Reimyo, etc. (price based on used DCC2)

spooky-real-fi: R2R system like Ironbut's

[HeadphoneAddict]

Thanks, that helps.

[morphsci]

Well my GS-X arrived home today from its trip to CanJam (seems to be less wear on the amp from the trip than on me). The relevant point for this thread is that along with the amp was another box with a D100 for a nice in-home demo.

[Upstateguy]

What a total surprise !

Crow is not nearly as tasty as chicken

USG

[Tachikoma]

Nothing wrong with him saying what he thinks, really. I'll take reviews like that over the ones that hype up every piece of new gear like its the best thing since sliced bread, on any day.

[some1x]

By 'him' you mean 'you' I guess this means DA100 - a few bits ~= D100 :D

edit: no offense intended to the reviewer.

[Dusty Chalk]

What a total surprise !

Crow is not nearly as tasty as chicken

USG

Like Tachikoma said, your honesty is refreshing.

[NekoAudio]

Thanks for posting your thoughts, USG, even if they aren't as favorable towards the D100 as I would have liked.

[Tachikoma]

By 'him' you mean 'you' I guess this means DA100 - a few bits ~= D100 :D

edit: no offense intended to the reviewer.

Woops, hadn't noticed that they were the same person xD

[HeadphoneAddict]

Thanks for posting your thoughts, USG, even if they aren't as favorable towards the D100 as I would have liked.

I wouldn't worry. Saying it is as good as a Stello DA100 isn't such a bad thing, since that is actually a pretty nice DAC in my opinion. It sounds pretty much like my stock PS Audio Digital Link III (at 96Khz upsampling), and maybe a little more refined than my Apogee mini-DAC. I understand it can be disappointing because those are all in the under $1000 category, and below the Neko's price point. But my PS Audio will cost another $700 to get the Cullen mods done, and so far nobody has suggested the Neko D100 needs to be modded.

When it becomes difficult for the reviewer to hear the differences, I think it sometimes helps to spend more time listening to the one piece of gear over a few days period of time, without switching out for an A/B. There have been many times when I listen to several items all at one time, where fatigue sets in and makes it more difficult to pick out the differences.

And, differences in transparency and detail are often more difficult to pick up when the timbre and tone or frequency response is similar. Those are easier to pick up when listening to an entire performance as a whole, without switching between two pieces of gear. I think he acknowledged some of that in response to questions about his review.

[Dusty Chalk]

When it becomes difficult for the reviewer to hear the differences, I think it sometimes helps to spend more time listening to the one piece of gear over a few days period of time, without switching out for an A/B.

Quoted for truth -- weeks, even. And then switch them out. And then listen to the other piece of gear for several days/weeks, and then switch back. You'll find yourself getting (slightly) depressed when switching to the inferior gear, and when that becomes noticeable, then it's time to call it. (This when trying to decide, for example, which of two pieces of gear to keep.)

[morphsci]

When it becomes difficult for the reviewer to hear the differences, I think it sometimes helps to spend more time listening to the one piece of gear over a few days period of time, without switching out for an A/B.

Quoted for truth -- weeks, even. And then switch them out. And then listen to the other piece of gear for several days/weeks, and then switch back. You'll find yourself getting (slightly) depressed when switching to the inferior gear, and when that becomes noticeable, then it's time to call it. (This when trying to decide, for example, which of two pieces of gear to keep.)

QFT for QFT. There is no one size fits all model for for reviewing/comparing gear. While quick a/b switches allow me to hear similarities among gear it is longer sessions and switches which really allow me to notice differences. It took me three months of switching back and forth to decide between two CD players, that by price alone, shouldn't have taken that long. YMMV

[darkless]

I still wonder how much better does a $5000 DAC really sound vs a $1295 DAC. There has to be a point of diminishing returns, where you could stop at something like this and never need to go past that?

Comparing my Stello DA220 MKII ($1600) vs my Weiss DAC1-MK2 ($6700) there was a large performance gap between the two. OTOH, comparing the Weiss to a Danish Audio Design DAC20 (expected retail price $5-6000) showed very little difference, in which case it's down to one's personal preferences, e.g. wider or narrower soundstage, slightly different tonality, build quality, features, etc.

I'm guessing that even higher performance can be achieved by investing $10000+ (such as Playback Designs) but considering the pace that digital audio improves and new standards emerge I'll never go there.

[NekoAudio]

I personally find it easiest to hear differences in my 2-channel reference setup. This is speakers, not headphones. My home theater setup, which is in the exact same room and has more expensive stuff along the entire chain, is not as accurate and precise as my 2-channel setup.

For identifying differences quickly, I have certain songs where the first 10 or 20 seconds of the track is particularly complex or unique, and use the remote to change pre-amp inputs. This usually lets me hear things like flute notes being less separated on one versus the other, or music with high levels of acoustic energy translating into noise or loss of control. I also hide behind a curtain and do this for friends.

Another test is to try and actually identify distortion. I've heard and heard of lots of gear that have excellent THD+N sine wave measurements but are obviously heavily distorting music. This usually translates into more acoustic energy (i.e. louder and more stuff to hear) but also treble fatigue and less controlled bass.

I don't like to color people's opinions by mentioning these things before or while they are listening. But sometimes after they've come to their initial conclusions, I like to mention this. Sometimes to hear differences you have to listen for something other than what you usually listen to. Like the less audible harmony while ignoring the singer's voice. Or violin vibrato while ignoring the rolling bass drums.

I started music lessons when I was like four or something and grew up playing solo piano and violin, and later trumpet in a band, so maybe that's why I end up listening to those sorts of things. I also find that I don't naturally tune out environmental noise during conversations, which makes it harder to hear what people are saying.... On the plus side that means I get just as much enjoyment out of music in languages I don't understand!

[cclragnarok]

I think I actually prefer music in languages I don't understand.

[Smeggy]

I think I actually prefer music in languages I don't understand.

Klingon Opera?

[Dusty Chalk]

Another test is to try and actually identify distortion.

This is really important -- I was listening to a Xiang Sheng amp, and really liked the punchiness of the sound. Figured out later that it was distorting, so indirectly compressing. Of course, once I heard it, decided I didn't like it so much, but I need to learn how to listen for it critically.

[NekoAudio]

Klingon Opera?

Ah! There's actually one type of music that sounds like that to me. But I won't say at the risk of offending those who like it (e.g. the people of that country).

[Augsburger]

Bulgaria?

[Voltron]

Ah! There's actually one type of music that sounds like that to me. But I won't say at the risk of offending those who like it (e.g. the people of that country).

Qu'vatlh guy'cha b'aka!

[NekoAudio]

Bulgaria?

Nope. But since Bulgaria is next to Romania, I suspect its music is similar to Romanian music? Of which the little I've heard, I've liked. My most recent batch of purchases included music from Japan, Norway, and Germany.

[Upstateguy]

I wouldn't worry. Saying it is as good as a Stello DA100 isn't such a bad thing, since that is actually a pretty nice DAC in my opinion. It sounds pretty much like my stock PS Audio Digital Link III (at 96Khz upsampling), and maybe a little more refined than my Apogee mini-DAC. I understand it can be disappointing because those are all in the under $1000 category, and below the Neko's price point. But my PS Audio will cost another $700 to get the Cullen mods done, and so far nobody has suggested the Neko D100 needs to be modded.

When it becomes difficult for the reviewer to hear the differences, I think it sometimes helps to spend more time listening to the one piece of gear over a few days period of time, without switching out for an A/B. There have been many times when I listen to several items all at one time, where fatigue sets in and makes it more difficult to pick out the differences.

And, differences in transparency and detail are often more difficult to pick up when the timbre and tone or frequency response is similar. Those are easier to pick up when listening to an entire performance as a whole, without switching between two pieces of gear. I think he acknowledged some of that in response to questions about his review.

Hi HeadphoneAddict

You indicated in your post at HF that you used a SPL meter to match volume. I was wondering what you technique was for its use with headphones?

Thanks

USG

[HeadphoneAddict]

Hi HeadphoneAddict

You indicated in your post at HF that you used a SPL meter to match volume. I was wondering what you technique was for its use with headphones?

Thanks

USG

Radio Shack SPL meter, poked through a hole in a piece of cardboard, which covers the headphone earcup, and pink noise from "Bink Audio Test CD" is played and volumes levels are adjusted - often starting at 80 dB and going up or down from there depending on how the music sounds at those levels.