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no..

the only true way of knowing if burn in works is to do what I have done in the past with the Hornet.

my hornet didn't go through anything even close to a substantial transformation during the first 500 hours. i think ray uses burn-in to explain away unflattering comments and it's likely to help (more than hurt) the longer people spend time with a product. the ray circus and his faithful milks this for all it's worth.
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hey vaporware fuck off...

seriously go fuck yourself.

you know the thread i posted on hf about the comparison with my bro's hornet and mine. that was the closet i ever came to doing a review so if you want to spin pussy ass doctor your fucked up way into turning any of my real shit into some fan boy shit then simply fuck off!

if you have anything else to say about this .. just stick your foot in your fucking mouth like you did when you screamed "vaporware" before cause i don't really wanna hear your stupid ass mother fucking conspiracy bullshit...atleast not on something i actually worked on.

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vaporware isn't on point. though, when an unreleased and unseen product is marketed, it's vaporware in my book. (billy on spin cycle)

ONLY one possible explanation, it must be burn-in, to the exclusion of any other explanation is just narrow-minded.

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hey vaporware fuck off...

seriously go fuck yourself.

you know the thread i posted on hf about the comparison with my bro's hornet and mine. that was the closet i ever came to doing a review so if you want to spin pussy ass doctor your fucked up way into turning any of my real shit into some fan boy shit then simply fuck off!

if you have anything else to say about this .. just stick your foot in your fucking mouth like you did when you screamed "vaporware" before cause i don't really wanna hear your stupid ass mother fucking conspiracy bullshit...atleast not on something i actually worked on.

Hi Billy

I remember reading your post on HF about the 2 hornets...

By any chance, did you open the Hornets up to see which caps were in them?

USG

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I think they both where the Original blue ones, umm they both were not the M mod versions as the comparison came before the m mod for the hornet. I actually had a lot of fun comparing those two amps, I compared them both after they had about equal hours on them, had one m modded then compared the m mod to the original head to head, and when i finally got both in the m mod version i did another comparison between the m mod amp with hours to the m mod without hours (as they say the caps are what needs the hours).

but to answer your original question i would say this is the only way to really know if there is a difference yourself. if you want to believe in burn in or not after you compare the two is up to you. of course if you post the answer people may not believe you..as seen here. it's easy to do such a comparison cause most companies have a 30 day return. buy two and a/b them right off the bat to make sure they sound the same (they should), then throw about 10 days worth of hours on one then compare the two, after that throw ten days on the other to see if they sound the same again like they both did with no hours. you will still have 10 days left to return one or both but just make sure you take lots of notes and keep your test setup the same for all tests (same gear, same cables, hell even the same seating position, etc) so the only variable in the three comparisons in the amount of hours on one of the amps in the second comparison, the first and last test both amps should sound the same to prove to YOU it was the hours you heard.

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I think they both where the Original blue ones, umm they both were not the M mod versions as the comparison came before the m mod for the hornet. I actually had a lot of fun comparing those two amps, I compared them both after they had about equal hours on them, had one m modded then compared the m mod to the original head to head, and when i finally got both in the m mod version i did another comparison between the m mod amp with hours to the m mod without hours (as they say the caps are what needs the hours).

but to answer your original question i would say this is the only way to really know if there is a difference yourself. if you want to believe in burn in or not after you compare the two is up to you. of course if you post the answer people may not believe you..as seen here. it's easy to do such a comparison cause most companies have a 30 day return. buy two and a/b them right off the bat to make sure they sound the same (they should), then throw about 10 days worth of hours on one then compare the two, after that throw ten days on the other to see if they sound the same again like they both did with no hours. you will still have 10 days left to return one or both but just make sure you take lots of notes and keep your test setup the same for all tests (same gear, same cables, hell even the same seating position, etc) so the only variable in the three comparisons in the amount of hours on one of the amps in the second comparison, the first and last test both amps should sound the same to prove to YOU it was the hours you heard.

Humm, my original Hornet has a black cap with gray stripe .... unless you actually looked, you might have gotten one of each.....

Regarding liberal return policies: This is a very sticky subject. What happens to the all the units that are returned? No one seems to be selling B stock. I don't know if I'd want an amp that someone had left on for 20 days and then returned, unless it was sold to me as a demo, so I don't think I'd be comfortable buying and returning, besides, as it turns out, I seem to be more of an accumulator... :D

Cesar got around that by sending demo models around. After I listened to the demo for a while, I ordered a New Portaphile Maxxed, and the demo went to the next guy on the list.

Regarding burn in: there was a wav demo, I believe, on the SH forum where they compared a CD dub from an original master tape with a first generation analog disk that SH cut himself, from the same master tape.... We were able to download both clips and try to listen for the differences between the analog disk and the CD. I may have gotten some of the facts wrong, but the concept is that it would be really easy to record the output of one of these portables when it was brand new (with a program like audacity) and save it as a wav, and then record the exact same clip 600 hrs later and listen for the differences like we did with the SH clips.

One thing's sure, the next amp I buy, I am definitely going to be doing that. If burn in makes a difference, I won't be the only one who hears it..... or not. :-\

USG

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I'm not sure about the electrical theory behind burn-in with small components and their large caps, but I have heard monsterous differences in sound with Ray's, Cesar's, Mikhail's, and Tyll's amps...good or bad.

Cary and Bryston both insist in their documentation on a minmum of 100 hours of burn-in before evaluating their amps and Cardas and VPI ask for a minimum of 40 hours on their cables.

Bryston burns in their amps 100 hours before sending out them out (looking for catastrophic failure) and then offers a 20 year transferable warranty. So do Mikhail and Ray (sans the 20 year warranty).

I've been heavily into home audio since the mid '70's and can say without hesitation, that almost all good components I've bought in 30 years, sounded better as they "matured".

Feel free to jump down my throat now, I have a lozenge ready.

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I burned-in some of the first Aristaeus amps for 2 weeks before shipping since I had to have the transformers replaced (they were made with inadequate insulation and the originals shorted out after a week). Also a good idea since the tubes were all different NOS. Unless that kind of extensive testing is revealed, 0-hour, 50-hour, 100-hour... impressions will still be reported on head-fi, including my personal favorite "it was unlistenable out of the box"

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I'm not sure about the electrical theory behind burn-in with small components and their large caps, but I have heard monsterous differences in sound with Ray's, Cesar's, Mikhail's, and Tyll's amps...good or bad.

Cary and Bryston both insist in their documentation on a minmum of 100 hours of burn-in before evaluating their amps and Cardas and VPI ask for a minimum of 40 hours on their cables.

Bryston burns in their amps 100 hours before sending out them out (looking for catastrophic failure) and then offers a 20 year transferable warranty. So do Mikhail and Ray (sans the 20 year warranty).

I've been heavily into home audio since the mid '70's and can say without hesitation, that almost all good components I've bought in 30 years, sounded better as they "matured".

Feel free to jump down my throat now, I have a lozenge ready.

Hi Aaron. I'm not going to jump down your throat. I'm sure that all those components sounded better to you after they matured. I'm sure that a lot of burn in occurred.

Let's look closer in the case of a new amplifier. On one hand, you have a pretty simple electrical device that will change slightly over time. There just isn't much there that can change. On the other hand, you have the brain, which is processing the signal from the amplifier via some wire and a transducer. The brain is an extremely complex biochemical device. It is very flexible and adaptable. It shows almost constant change in how it works.

So over time, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of burn in is occuring in the brain and only a minute amount occurs in the equipment. Notice that this doesn't invalidate your belief that the equipment sounded better over time. It's just that your brain was doing most of the changing.

My favorite case of brain burn in is the experiment where a person was given given glasses that inverted all images. The subject had to wear the glasses during all waking hours. After several days, suddenly the images that the subject saw were right side up again. The brain had burned in a bit, eh? Then the glasses were taken away. Again images were inverted to the subject. Again after several days, the brain righted the images. I have to believe that similar experiments would show the brain doing interesting processing on aural input.

-ken

Life was unlistenable out of the box! ;)

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I burned-in some of the first Aristaeus amps for 2 weeks before shipping since I had to have the transformers replaced (they were made with inadequate insulation and the originals shorted out after a week). Also a good idea since the tubes were all different NOS. Unless that kind of extensive testing is revealed, 0-hour, 50-hour, 100-hour... impressions will still be reported on head-fi, including my personal favorite "it was unlistenable out of the box"

There is without a doubt some mental burn in that takes place when people say "unlistenable out of the box" whether they like to admit it or not (whether this has to do with ego, buyers remorse, etc who knows). I experienced it a few days ago hearing Thiel speakers. Super bright when I first heard them, eventually adjusted to the sound...went back and played the tracks that I thought were super bright and they remained only "bright" and my brain had adjusted. Line level was digitally controlled so the volume was exactly the same.

There is a lot of psychoacoustics that some people flat out refuse to believe exists.

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I never have... the sound just always "opens up" and becomes "more focussed", yada yada...

That said, the manufacturer of my speaker amp (Odyssey) swears by burn in. I bought mine used, so never subjected myself to the process though.

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if you are hearing the thiels as super bright, then either the upstream components don't work well with them, or the positioning/room is wrong. i am very sensitive to bright speakers/headphones, and my 2.4s sure as hell aren't bright (when they work).

I doubt there was anything wrong with the setup. I described it in the other thread.

If I had a tube pre I would have loved to have swapped it in. But alas I did not.

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Hi Aaron. I'm not going to jump down your throat. I'm sure that all those components sounded better to you after they matured. I'm sure that a lot of burn in occurred.

Let's look closer in the case of a new amplifier. On one hand, you have a pretty simple electrical device that will change slightly over time. There just isn't much there that can change. On the other hand, you have the brain, which is processing the signal from the amplifier via some wire and a transducer. The brain is an extremely complex biochemical device. It is very flexible and adaptable. It shows almost constant change in how it works.

So over time, I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of burn in is occuring in the brain and only a minute amount occurs in the equipment. Notice that this doesn't invalidate your belief that the equipment sounded better over time. It's just that your brain was doing most of the changing.

BINGO!

Burn in=getting used to the sound.

Except for speakers.

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I have a burn in question that I want to throw out to you guys:

If someone were to connect the output of a new Predator to the mic input on their computer, with a mini to mini, and recorded 30 seconds of their favorite test music with Audacity and saved it to a wav, and repeated this at various intervals during the so called 600hr burn in period, would we be able to hear the differences ourselves if we compared the first and last wavs?

USG

hmm shouldnt this work if you have decent analog inputs?

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