HD800? Another rumor?

[Dreadhead]

So, would you recommend a person with a maxed GES to add a KGSS to it and have two different flavors, or get rid of the GES and get a KGBHSE?

Sorry you're asking the wrong person. I have never heard the GES and I'm not a tube guy, hence the KGSS. That said the BHSE sounded amazing and totally neutral with no tube sound to me. It depends on what you're looking for. I'm looking for repeatability mostly.

[Dreadhead]

I am interested in measurements of the ESP950 on the KGSS vs E90. To see if there is a measurable difference. Don't worry I'm not doubting the KGSS sounds much better

I have already observed measured performance differences in the high part of the frequency range between the KGSS and the SRM that I have had. The plot is around here somewhere. Down low I didn't see anything.

[Lil' Knight]

Sorry you're asking the wrong person. I have never heard the GES and I'm not a tube guy, hence the KGSS. That said the BHSE sounded amazing and totally neutral with no tube sound to me. It depends on what you're looking for. I'm looking for repeatability mostly.

Did you try the 717? I'm curious how the new KGSS sounds against the 717.

[guzziguy]

Sorry you're asking the wrong person. I have never heard the GES and I'm not a tube guy, hence the KGSS. That said the BHSE sounded amazing and totally neutral with no tube sound to me. It depends on what you're looking for. I'm looking for repeatability mostly.

You have to understand that Chris doesn't actually listen to his amps. He only measures them. So you should only ask him which amps' measurements he prefers.

[TheSloth]

Finally got to listen to my HD800's.

They are NOT burned in, so maybe I'll get flamed, but I don't believe burn-in makes a completely new headphone so there is some validity.

As a bit of background about my ears, I am a classical musician, and my favourite headphones are the HD650's. That being said, I don't like 650's that much, I just haven't found any other headphone that doesn't have something about it that bothers me terribly. I have perhaps excessive sensitivity to harshness, and the I can live with the muddy nature of the 650 more than I can with anything else I've tried.

Amplification is not spectacular - a modified Desktop Portable with Max DAC -> Home Module. I rather like the crossfeed, especially with IEM's, even though it does colour the sound a bit too much, especially in the bass which goes from muddy to total sludge on the 650. I'm not using it with the HD800.

Due to my lack of great love for 650's and not having found anything else I preferred, I've listened to headphones less and less over the past year. It just doesn't 'do it for me' the way it used to.

Hence my great excitement over the HD800's. Finally unboxed them last night, and they have only a few hours on them.

Firstly, I find them heavy - very comfortable around the ear in terms of space, but I do sense the weight more than the 650. I have them on my head now and find the weight a bit bothersome actually. I find the cable a little more annoying that the 650 - it doesn't unravel and sit as easily as the old cable - it likes to retwist itself, particularly from the split that goes to each earpiece. I can't find any squeaks or issues with build quality - it is very, very nicely made.

The design is nice, but I preferred the rugged simplicity of the 650 - I just grab them by one ear cup when I want to pick them up, and that doesn't seem like it's going to hurt them. These I feel I need to pick up carefully from the headband.

Anyway, the sound. My immediate impression is that I don't really get it. These are supposed to be a totally different class from their predecessors. Indeed, they sound different. But I don't hear that different as revealing a new level of reproduction. I am not finding insights into what I am hearing that were not previously available to me through the 650. On the flight on the way over here I was listening to my ER4s and again don't feel that I'm getting anything special.

In other words, there is nothing obvious to me about what is so special about this new-fangled driver that they have jabbered on about. It sounds like a dynamic headphone transducer. One thing I can tell immediately is that it is not 'neutral'. Neutral to me means that I do not hear a particular frequency emphasis within the tonality of acoustic instruments that I do not hear in real life, even across a wide variety of acoustics. The HD800's (well with all these graphs maybe I should say MY pair of HD800's) sin is in the upper midrange/lower treble. There is something accentuating the nasal quality of every instrument. It reminds me slightly of experiences with single driver dynamic loudspeakers, and some headphones such as closed Audio Technica's. Maybe even K1000's which have that thinness/dryness there. I'm not saying it sounds similar to those overall, just in the sense of the midrange colouration. I call it nasal because it seems to accentuate that quality of the human voice - every voice and particularly woodwind instrument gets the hint of having a stuffy nose. Violins are unrealistically thinned out. Colour me very unimpressed.

Really everything else about this is good. But this new driver placement really doesn't change the world for me - it does have a tiny effect, but it really is tiny. Bass response is excellent, and probably a step forward. And as for this 'speed' thing - well I really have no idea what people are talking about. People say Grado's are fast - to me they have an FR with peaky treble and absent very low bass which makes them sound sharp, and people call that fast. In other words, I'm not sure people are identifying anything other than a particular (and unrealistic to my ears) frequency response. So yes, these are 'fast'. Except they are not absent in very low bass (HR's measurements seem to show they have a better response between 10 and 20hz than any other headphone, thought that would seem to be pretty irrelevant). I'm not totally sure about extension at the very, very top. I'm not quite hearing air around the sound that comes from those very top harmonics.

Overall, as first impressions go, this really isn't great. I think I could get used to this headphone, and even like it. I am kind of enjoying it now, but I am having to do so by actively tolerating something I don't like. My initial reaction is to start taking photographs to post in a FS, though I will give it some more time. Overall, my sense is that this is a very good headphone. But if someone had put this on my head (ignore the fact I can feel it's different) and said it was a pair differently voiced HD650's with slightly angled drivers but otherwise the same fundamental technology, I would not have a hard time believing them.

They are least bothersome to me at lower volumes. And I'm no head-banger to start with. That's great for my ears, but they don't seem to be quite voiced for that either - to get down to a volume where the midrange doesn't bother me too much, the bass is inadequate. Equal loudness and all that, they need a bit more bass at that volume.

It seems that there is still plenty of room for someone to really get it right. But my lessened enjoyment of headphones over the past years (and that's not actually in comparison to good speakers, because I don't have any) implies that maybe I just don't like headphones. I can't believe what I hear. Oddly, psycho acoustically the things that bother me the least are my ER4s's. No idea why, that certainly isn't supposed to be the case. Anyway, perhaps my feelings about this headphone are marked by my dislike of the genre of product in the first place - maybe I was expecting them to restore my connection with the headphone experience and it seems pretty clear that isn't going to happen. And that's a fuck load of money to find that out!

Oh, and thanks head-case. Would never bother to post this at head-fi.

[HeadphoneAddict]

Finally got to listen to my HD800's.

They are NOT burned in, so maybe I'll get flamed, but I don't believe burn-in makes a completely new headphone so there is some validity.

Oh, and thanks head-case. Would never bother to post this at head-fi.

Maybe Head-fi needs a post like this every once in a while. As for HD800 burn-in, they don't change very much between new and 250 hours, but they do become less grainy and a bit smoother. I bought a new pair of HD600 last year and they also didn't change a lot with burn-in (nothing like Ultrasones lengthy process). The HD800 still remind me a little of my HE60, and yet I would still like my HD800 to be a little less bright with a little more bass - basically an HD600 with better detail, speed and soundstage. The HD800 are not as detailed as my stats and still seem slightly veiled when compared to my stats, although that is somewhat improved over the HD600. So, I really like the HD800 but they haven't made me want to sell my HD600 yet, and sometimes I like my high-end custom IEM more.

[Fing]

GIGO

[XXII]

So, I really like the HD800 but they haven't made me want to sell my HD600 yet, and sometimes I like my high-end custom IEM more.

So which is it Larry? JH13 or HD800?

I was set on the HD800 for a while but all this JH13 talk is really making me have doubts...

[darkless]

I found my pair of HD800 bleh sounding out of the box. I put it back in the box and let it play pink noise at 90 dB(A) for several days, only interrupted by a few very short listening sessions (10-15 minutes) and two longer breaks where I had to power down the equipment. I found that the HD800 slowly improved until it had received a total of around 50 hours of pink noise. After that I didn't perceive further changes and after another day with no apparent changes I stopped the pink noise playback.

It's been three weeks since I did the burn-in, so my memory is a bit blurred. I believe the changes I heard was mostly the bass becoming more apparent (but still less quantity than the HD650), the transient response improving somewhat and the upper-mids/low treble becoming more musical, for lack of a better word.

I never put my impressions into words when I did the in-between burn-in listening sessions, so combined with the length of time since the burn-in it's quite possible that what I just described doesn't correspond with other people's impressions. I guess that was a long-winded way of saying YMMV.

[Elephas]

Whoa, my impressions of the HD800 are completely different from TheSloth's. But I'm sure that we Team Animal Membernames will stick together anyway.

I think that the HD800 is much better than the HD650 or HD600. As good as the HD6x0 are, and they have their strengths such as a nice smooth non-fatiguing sound, I wouldn't compare them with the R10, Qualia or electrostats.

The HD800's soundstage, imaging and separation is quite special. It presents a very large, deep, layered, and clear soundstage that seems to be "in front of you." Separation is superb, I think maybe the best I've ever heard. Yes, better than the Qualia, R10, O2mk1, or HE90. Each sound image is very clear and distinct on the very coherent soundstage.

One of songs in Utada - This Is The One, "Dirty Desire" is a fun and sexy song. There are some nice mixing and mastering effects. The lead vocals are mixed, sometimes coming from in far front, sometimes from the front and other times from the sides. With the HD800 the locations of the vocals are pinpoint and nicely separated. There's a clear space where they're coming from. I tried the O2mk1, HE90 and Qualia and they can't match the HD800 in this aspect with this song.

(Hey darkless, don't worry, your former Qualia 010 competes quite comfortably against the HD800. The Qualia concedes nothing to any headphone, it's ready to do full battle.)

[The Monkey]

Seeing as how the mammalia are chiming in, I thought I'd say kudos to you sloth on your insightful impressions. I am particularly interested in your statement about the nasal quality of voices. I don't know if that's how I would have described it, but the statement resonates with me, and I will listen more closely tonight. I was perceiving it as maybe some "grain," but that doesn't seem to capture it either.

[screaming oranges]

Is the HD800 becoming Senn's GS1000? A love it or hate it can?

[Hopstretch]

Seeing as how the mammalia are chiming in, I thought I'd say kudos to you sloth on your insightful impressions. I am particularly interested in your statement about the nasal quality of voices. I don't know if that's how I would have described it, but the statement resonates with me, and I will listen more closely tonight. I was perceiving it as maybe some "grain," but that doesn't seem to capture it either.

The upper midrange/treble troubles me too, but I don't hear it as a nasal inflection. Rather as a sometimes-intrusive sharp edge to vocals. I do absolutely agree, though, that the "sweet spot" volume level is too low for my liking.

Where I part company with the sloths and join the elephants is on the spaciousness of the presentation. Elephas is spot on about the sound staging. I just couldn't go back to the 6X0 series now, despite having lived happily with both for extended periods in the past.

The HD800 is a superb headphone. But like everything else in life, it has its own particular frustrating imperfections.

Edited July 22, 2009 by Hopstretch

[Torpedo]

It's a different nasal tonality than the DX1000 have, or the Grados have. In fact I would call it more "shouty" than "nasal" coloration. The best way I can find to describe it is as the singer giving the impression that is having difficulties to deliver the voice.

My theory is that it's produced for the 5.5-6KHz peak. This enhances the 3rd formant area which changes a bit the pattern of the vowels. This can be also perceived as an "airy" feeling in the voices. It's also noticeable on wind instruments and violins playing high notes, they have a more piercing and airier character than they have on other phones. On violins it's kind of a metallic rasping tone and on trumpets with mute the timbre gets a bit harsher.

I don't find it annoying unless the own recording is "hot" already. I must say this has slightly improved by using the Gilmore Reference instead of the B22, and maybe for some additional playing time on the phones. Mine are about 80 hours so far.

IMHO the O2 are more effortless, relaxed, musical and engaging than the HD800. Their stage, while lacking the depth of the HD800's, is more precise, it changes following recorded differences in size and separation. The HD800 are more "generic", maybe not as much as K701, which seem to have a wide stage on whatever you play, but still always wide and open, showing less spatial differences among recordings than the O2 or even the R10. The O2 may sound as narrow as a pair of Grados or almost as wide as the R10 depending on the discs you play. No other phones I know of can do that with the sheer resolution of the O2.

[rogue]

IMHO the O2 are more effortless, relaxed, musical and engaging than the HD800. Their stage, while lacking the depth of the HD800's, is more precise, it changes following recorded differences in size and separation. The HD800 are more "generic", maybe not as much as K701, which seem to have a wide stage on whatever you play, but still always wide and open, showing less spatial differences among recordings than the O2 or even the R10. The O2 may sound as narrow as a pair of Grados or almost as wide as the R10 depending on the discs you play. No other phones I know of can do that with the sheer resolution of the O2.

Damnit, this really makes me want to sell my HD800 and DX1000 and get some O2's. While I do enjoy the HD800's immensely in short bursts, I'm still finding their 6KHz peak fatiguing after about an hour of listening at moderate volumes, something which is ultimately frustrating considering how smooth and non-fatiguing the HD650's were, and ends up killing my listening enjoyment. I doubt that another source or amp upgrade will alleviate this, at it seems to be tied into the phones themselves. Anyone have any impressions of the APS V3 cable for the HD800, specifically whether it helps "smooth over" this 6k peak?

[Dusty Chalk]

Thanks for the honest impressions TheSloth. And really nice succinct definition of "neutral", BTW.

[HeadphoneAddict]

So which is it Larry? JH13 or HD800?

I was set on the HD800 for a while but all this JH13 talk is really making me have doubts...

Hmmm, I do seem to be grabbing the JH13Pro more often lately.

[Dreadhead]

You have to understand that Chris doesn't actually listen to his amps. He only measures them. So you should only ask him which amps' measurements he prefers.

Finally someone understands me

[robm321]

Is the HD800 becoming Senn's GS1000? A love it or hate it can?

This seems to be the case. I'll get to hear them at the next bay area meet in a couple of weeks. Headfi will not allow a negative comment without torches and pitchforks on these headphones, so it's best you keep negative impressions away from there.

[Voltron]

This seems to be the case. I'll get to hear them at the next bay area meet in a couple of weeks. Headfi will not allow a negative comment without torches and pitchforks on these headphones, so it's best you keep negative impressions away from there.

Fuck you Rob. I'm not sure what you are basing that on, but I would have thought it was beneath you.

[blubliss]

I'll get to hear them at the next bay area meet in a couple of weeks. Headfi will not allow a negative comment without torches and pitchforks on these headphones, so it's best you keep negative impressions away from there.

Haven't you been spewing negativity about them for months now or hopping on the negative bandwagon whenever it drives by? And you haven't even heard them . STFU until you do. Then please feel free to say all the negative you want. Nobody gives a huge shit really, we all have different ears.

[atothex]

HD800 will probably never be as divisive as GS1000. I haven't seen that much hate yet, and that has nothing to do with HF conspiracies. Many of us just think it's a great headphone, and that's that.

My only complaint is that I think it's ugly as hell. Some Battlestar Galactica shit right there.

[robm321]

Fuck you Rob. I'm not sure what you are basing that on, but I would have thought it was beneath you.

I was basing it off Skylab giving a positive review but stating that it wasn't for him after all which was followed by many posts saying his system sucked or that he was biased, etc. He took a lot of flak gracefully. I'm definitely looking forward to the next meet...

But, overall, you are right. I guess I have been raining on the parade, and It's not right and beneath me to do that. I have been negative unjustly especially having not heard them. I guess I wanted a counter balance to the hype. But I will STFU now because that's not how I want to be about headphones that people enjoy.

[Voltron]

Wow, I owe you an apology Rob. My post was based on mis-reading your comment and filtering it through my memory of a post you made to TheSloth earlier on about thinking this place was supposed to be more tolerant of differing opinions than HF. Reading it quickly at work, I thought you were saying you couldn't make any negative comments about the HD800 here without the pitchforks and torches coming out. I really am sorry for jumping on you unnecessarily.

That said, I still don't understand what "marketing" or "hype" Sennheiser did upon the launch of these headphones. They went to CES like everyone else, they put them on their website, and then they released them eventually. Head-Fi and vendors hyped the crap out of them, and even you were pumped up about them early on. But I still don't get what Sennheiser did wrong, and please don't point at John W or whatever his name is because that ain't gonna cut it.

Oh, yeah, and STFU about the HD800 until you hear them.

[robm321]

thanks - no worries at all. I'm glad things are good again.

Sennheisser didn't do anything wrong. It's their job to market these like any company, and they've done that well. I have to take back my comment which was unfounded about that. It would be nit picking at best anyway.

I think I've just reacted to the headfiers (only a few of them) that won't allow a negative comment, but who am I kidding. That happens with every headphone out there.

So clearly I'm going to backpedal off this negative track. I've always felt that the HE-90 was on a teir all it's own from a technical standpoint and was a big fan of the HD600 which I owned for many years, so my posts haven't reflected the fact that I do very much like Sennheisser.

So, now I'll STFU about what these are or not and stop coming off like an -